Great work CabinetMaker!
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:first:Can anybody do anything without God first ordaining that they will do it? Or, said differently, can there be any cause if God does not first ordain that there will be a cause.No matter what belief you hold, you must distinguish causal agents and their relationship to the events caused. You continue to assert God caused everything. As God is the Ultimate First Cause, all Christians must agree to this statement. Now upon inspection of the Scriptures we find it clearly stated that God does not author sin. What then of our original statement that God is the Ultimate First Cause? Both these statements are true, so we must reconcile them or accept a contradiction, which won't do at all. Thus there must be some refinements of what 'cause' means that lifts us from the horns of this seeming dilemma. Do you see that this is required?
My only quibble would be that they are temporal. God did all His ordaining before He began creating. Thus He knows what you will do tomorrow because He ordained it yesterday. Whether its temporal from God's point of view depends on whether you believe God exists in time or outside of time.Ask Mr. Religion said:First, a quibble about precise use of words. God ordains and knows from this ordaining. It is just knowledge to God. We use foreknowledge as an human accommodation, that is, it is foreknowledge from our perspectives, not God's. There is no "past preordination" with respect to foreknowledge. The steps in the decree are logical orderings only, not having any temporal aspects.
What I have said is very different from what you have said. Could Peter have denied Christ three times if God had not decided that Peter would deny Christ three times before God created the world? Could Peter do anything with God ordaining that He would do it?Ask Mr. Religion said:You state, "Peter does not refrain from sinning because Peter was preordained to sin." You are only stating what I have said in other ways. Again, I state that Peter's actions were indeed ordained by God. But God's ordaining does not make God the author of Peter's sinning. God's ordaining only makes Peter's own sinning certain to occur. What you have written agrees with what I have also written. You are not being clear in what you actually intend to communicate. I think you are trying to say that God directly (proximately) caused Peter to sin, that Peter's will played no part in the matter, that Peter was coerced to sin by God. Again, if this is what you intend, it is making God to be the author of sin, and you have no Scriptural warrant to say this. Neither do I, nor have I said as such. Thus, I don't get the point you are trying to make.
I do not believe that you think God does evil because of how you see the reformed belief. It is my contention that under the settled view, God must be the direct author of sin because the settled view requires that God unchangeably ordained everything that happen. If everything means everything, then God is the only cause of everything that happens regardless of how He chooses to carry out His ordinations.Ask Mr. Religion said:I thought we were making progress. God is not capable of evil, so no matter what He does, CM, it is not evil. Agree? Please stop with the "allow God to do evil" statements. I have not stated or inferred that God is the author of sin, yet you seem fixated on it. You miscast and wave off compatibilism with no substantive supporting rationale. I don't mind discussing the topic, but some progress is required.
Because of how the settled view defines Gods sovereignty, there is no meaningful difference between God ordaining and God causing. Nothing happens without God first deciding that a0 it will happen and b)exactly how it will happen. Is there on quark in this universe that is not under God's direct control?Ask Mr. Religion said:Ordaining is not a causal agent, CM. My choices are driven by my inclinations. That my inclinations have been shaped by my Creator does not absolve me from accounting to Him for my choices based upon these inclinations. That my Creator cannot sin means that He is not the author of my choices.
There was nothing emotionally laden in my statement. You imply that God works benignly behind the scenes to make you want to do what He has ordained you will do. You imply that it is a non-violent action. I merely pointed out that there are circumstances that are most defiantly violent that result in actions a person may well have done otherwise. Don't accuse me of using emotional tactics and then refuse to address the point I was making.Ask Mr. Religion said:These emotionally laden tactics do not move the discussion forward. I have described compatibilism in painful detail, which clearly reconciles God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Again, you are trying to convey God as the author of sin, and I just won't abide by it. Please offer up substantive scriptural support, make cogent statements, or ask pointed questions. This discussion is very one-sided at present. I am doing the heavy lifting while you respond with generalizations and sentimentalities.
Where did I say God is not wholly sovereign? I believe my exact words were, "in fully sovereign control over that creation." Fully and Wholly are synonymous in this case. Again, you imply something about the garbage in my life that I did not say. I said God did not ordain or plan the garbage in my life, or Job's or Josephs. But God take the garbage in our lives and turn it into something good.Ask Mr. Religion said:Perhaps we should have started here. Where is your biblical support that God is strictly a 'big picture' God and not the wholly sovereign God? Do you think "all the garbage" that happened to Job was not ordained? To Joseph? You think "all the garbage" in your life has no meaning to God?
An interesting note about Job. Job is frequently offered as an example of God ordaining bad things in peoples lives. Look at the story closely. God did not ordain a single thing that happened to Job. Satan came to God and asked to test Job. God said fine you may do anything you want but you may not hurt Job. God did not tell Satan what to do to Job, only what not to do. God only told Satan what not to do. Job remained faithful to God and God restored Job in the end.
I think that during OT times for sure, God had plans for people like Joseph and Moses and Noah and David. I think that God may have been much more active in these peoples lives than in the everyman's life. That does not mean God loves the everyman less, it just means that God had plans that required leaders to be tempered so God tempered them.
God has a plan. God will make that plan come to fruition. But God is so powerful, that He does not have to micro-manage the details to work His wholly sovereign will upon His creation.
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Thank you.
