Knight's pick 11-26-2007

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Nathon Detroit

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Good goal. I hope it comes to fruition.

You can start with these Top Ten:

What theological arguments can be made by open theists that...

1. they possess libertarian free will (liberty of indifference)?
Liberty of indifference is typically defined in terms of acting: a free agent is one who, all the conditions required for action having been posited, can either act or not, or perform a contrary action. But liberty of indifference could easily be redefined in terms of choosing: our will is free if, all the conditions required for choosing having been posited, we can either choose or not, or choose the contrary.

Interesting that AMR, a Presuppositionalist, would ask for a theological argument for a philosophical term as though they are somehow two entirely different disciplines. :think:

Put simply the theological argument is based on the Justice of God in that it is only just to reward/punish an action/choice if the acting agent could have done/chosen otherwise.

The alternative renders God arbitrary and justice meaningless.

2. God exists within time and is not atemporal?
Words and concepts do not stand alone in most cases but are instead built upon other more foundational concepts. (AMR's presuppositionalism should have taught him this but he never gets it.) To exists presupposes the notion of duration. If your existence has no duration you do not exist at all. Duration is time (look it up in the dictionary if you doubt it). Thus to say that God exists outside of time is to commit a stolen concept fallacy. That is, the idea that anything could exist outside of time contains within it an inherent contradiction and is therefore a self-defeating statement.

3. God is sometimes mistaken in His knowledge due to the libertarian choices made by His creatures?
There are literally dozens of passages one could quote. I'll stick with just one since AMR and most others reading this have seen these passages dozens of times already without effect.

Jeremiah 19:5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),
- This same thing is repeated in Jeremiah 32:35 as well.​

4. God actually changes His mind?
Jeremiah 15:6 Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting.

Joshua 3:10 And Joshua said, “By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites:

Judges 2:1 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” 4 So it was, when the Angel of the LORD spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept.​

5. God learns discursively?
Isaiah 1:18a “ Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD,

6. God is not omnipotent in the classical sense, but that His efforts can be defeated?
Luke 7:29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.​
Notice the Greek term here for "will" is the strongest possible word available in the Greek. This is not merely the desire of God but the express purpose of His will. See Strong's 1012

7. that the attributes of God revolve around God's love, that is, all attributes must be defined with love at the center?

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.​
This passages states directly that prophesy, omniscience and even faith are as nothing when compared to love.

1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.​
Notice that this verse does not say that God is merely loving or that He loves us or anything like that. It says that God IS love. Love is itself incarnate in the very person of God Himself. This is more of AMR's own Presuppositionalism in action, by the way.

There is no such verse that says God is omniscience or omnipotence or any of the other Classical attributes.

8. that God can guarantee the final outcome of the eschaton despite His inability to know the future?
For those of you not used to the bloviated manner in which AMR likes to speak, eschaton refers to the end times as in 'eschatology'.

Much of what is referred to as the end times has been predestined by God. The Heavens and the Earth belong to God the Open View does not teach that anyone has the ability to prevent Him from doing with it whatever He chooses to do with it. He can and will destroy both the Heavens and the Earth and create a new version of both whenever and however He sees fit to do so. Anyone who might attempt to stand in His way will obviously be destroyed.

9. that meaningless evil actually exists?
I don't understand what is meant by "meaningless evil". Evil, by definition, is hurtful to those who perform it and to those upon whom it is performed. In what way could that be construed as meaningless?

10. that God is not sovereign in the classical understanding of the term, that is, He is not directly in control of each and every process, thought, word, and deed of the created universe?
See the answers to questions 1 and 3.

God is the highest authority in existence. He has sovereignly chosen to delegate authority to several creatures including but not limited to the authority of human beings to exercise the ability to choose to do or to do otherwise.

Resting in Him,
Clete
:first:
 

Daniel50

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God bless you, all Glory to God.
Phil 1:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to
add affliction to my bonds:
1:17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the
gospel.
1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretense, or in
truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will
rejoice.
 

Clete

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Hey! Alright! :BRAVO:

I haven't gotten a POTD in quite a while! I love getting POTD! :D

Thanks Knight!
 

Poly

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Wow, great post!
 

Delmar

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I'm probably going to read Clete's post in the morning, but since reading it requires wading through another AMR book it's going to have to wait until I have rested!
 
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