Knight's pick 10-18-2003

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by 1Way
Welcome to TOL! I am a long time resident poster and love topics like this one.

Unconditional love is no where taught in scripture. But before we examine scripture, the issue is far simpler if we just examine what you have already said.

Unconditional love.

Take love first. Love, is it good or bad, right or wrong, godly or ungodly? Wrong, none of the above. Love is amoral and holds no necessary godly value. Biblical love that is generally taught in scripture is often spoken of without clarification that it is the good and righteous godly love, but that is because godly love is so important and so often discussed, it has become an unspoken understanding that a general reference to love found in scripture, is generally supposed to be a righteous good godly sort of love. Even the bible, even in the NT speaks about love that is wicked and hypocritical and against God and His gift of salvation.

But the amoral reality about love is only manifest, consider

A love for

Evil is evil
God is good
Immorality is bad
Righteousness is good

So love is an amoral concept, more important that having love, is having a righteous godly love. That is why scripture never equivocates on the issues of right and wrong, of true verses false, of good verses bad, of life verses death, etc.

So upon simply considering the word love, we already know that it is an amoral concept that is neither good nor bad until we fit it into it’s application or moral setting.

Secondly, unconditional. Does God ever teach anything without conditions? No. He always establishes the truth of a matter or teaching based upon the conditions of His righteousness and goodness and godliness, etc. God is the source of all that is good and right and godly, thus He is the condition upon which all good and godly and righteous things come from.

So without specifically addressing scripture, I find this issue is easily understood from general biblical concepts along with the truth in reality about what love without conditions really is.

Next post I will consider your bible suggestions.

:first:

[ CONTEXT ]

 

[Nathon Detroit]

1Way's continuation.....

Originally posted by 1Way
Chileice – continued from last post.

Ps 130

Ps 130:3 If You, LORD, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand? 4 But there is forgiveness with You, That You may be feared.

(Forgiveness is never without conditions, it is always from a repentant heart, it must always be true or sincere not fake or false, etc. etc.)

Ps 130:7 O Israel, hope in the LORD; For with the LORD [there is] mercy, And with Him [is] abundant redemption. 8 And He shall redeem Israel From all his iniquities.

(with Him is abundant redemption, fully enough for all, but do all get redeemed? Certainly not. He shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities, but what about those whom He already condemned? Will God say that He was wrong for harshly judging against wicked Israel? I don’t think so. Universal or unconditional reconciliation with Israel seems fully the exception to what the entire bible teaches, not the norm. But there is something to be said about how it is that God seems to be so optimistic about Israel’s outcome, on the other hand, I just can’t see God going against Himself and His righteousness. If Israel repents, then they can be forgiven with God’s abundant redemption, but if they do not repent, it would be impossible for God to forgive precisely because He is a good and righteous God who rewards the righteous and opposes the un-righteous.)

The prodigal son.

Lu 15:17 "But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 ‘I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 "and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants."‘

(What can I say, but most excellent and extravagant repentance and humility, way to go the repentant son!)

Jesus´conversation with the thief on the cross

The man said that He deserved to die for what he had done, which is true, God established the death penalty for capitol offenses, and Jesus did not correct him for teaching as he did, so it seems quite apparent, especially when you consider that Jesus also supported the death penalty, that righteousness and justice is not incongruent with godly love.

Jesus accepted the thief/murder because he exhibited faith in the truth about who Jesus was. His actions for defending what is right and for opposing what is evil shows that he must have had a repentant heart over what he did and towards Jesus as well. Love is not the way to God, godly love is. Consider the problem of hypocritical love, which is a sin.

Ro 12:9 [Let] love [be] without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

Mr 8:15 Then He charged them, saying, "Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod."

Mr 12:13 Then they sent to Him some of the Pharisees and the Herodians, to catch Him in [His] words. Mt 22:15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in [His] talk. 16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, "Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men. 17 "Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?" 18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?

Leaven is sin and wickedness. So because of the leaven and hypocrisy (against God’s ways), which is wickedness, love can be wicked and sinful, via Rom 12:9 if it is hypocritical.

Consider also the kind of love that leads toward salvation.

2Th 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Salvation requires love of the truth(!) that they might be saved. Which only makes sense since our salvation is in Jesus, who is the Truth.

So it seems that everywhere we look in the bible, God’s ways, all of them, are eternal and necessary if we want to be godly. Love is not an end, it is only an end if you consider the bible’s conditions that it puts on love, it's always the sort of love that is

righteous
and just
and holy
and good
and is according to all of God’s character and ways.

Then and only then is love synonymous with God. Anytime we detract from God’s character and ways, we run into problems. So godly biblical love is very conditional, and unconditional love is nowhere promoted in scripture.

Blessings in Him and all His ways!

I would oppose the Mormon based on some other issue that he is not right about.