Originally posted by 1Way
Jim - If atheists are wrong, then why do you give them so much credence? I do not accept a personal subjective inaccurate claim as authoritative**, instead, I use reason and logic and truth and God’s word to shape my response.
** Quoting Jim saying.
No. The atheist denies having faith, 1Way. Aussie has told you this. The truth is they have a blind, irrational faith, but most of them deny it. So there is no "statement of atheistic faith/belief" that an atheist (or at least most) will agree with.
What makes an atheist, an atheist, is the “belief” that the answer to the question, does God(s) exist, is no.
Ok, I’ll take on this challenge, it’s not really a challenge, except to see how bad I can make the atheist look on this issue, I’ll give it a try with aussie or attention, etc.
If you or anyone wants to demote that statement from faith/belief into just being a claim, then just do the 2 second math on that idea! So they only “claim” that no God exists. Then you simply ask them, do they believe that claim to be true, or do they believe that claim to be false. They don’t like to face this fact, but obviously they “believe” that claim to be true, manifestly, if they believed it to be false, then they would not be an atheist. (Hello out there, Come in Jim, earth to Jim and all atheists alike.)
Another way to restate belief or faith, is trust. If they, and apparently yourself, just do not want to deal with this issue objectively, then ask the question, do you trust that the truth or reality of the matter is that there is no God. Lastly, if you/they do not concede to this reasoning, then perhaps all that remains is the question, does faith and/or belief and/or trust exist. If you/they do not concede that belief exists and is part of what it means to be an atheist, then you just can’t win an argument with willfully stupid, of course belief and faith and trust exists and of course that is at the heart of what it means to be an atheist.
I believe the claim
God exists
That is, I understand and have confidence that the claim God exists is a true statement, a statement of reality. The atheist says the exact same sort of thing (a statement of belief) when they state:
God does not exist
That is their understanding of reality; they trust and understand that claim to be a true statement of reality. To suggest that atheists do not believe in their understanding about God, is to beg the entire question of what it means to be an atheist, it is a positive denial that God exists. But, even a theist can make that claim, here watch me,
God does not exist
So by your reasoning, I would be an atheist, but the truth is contrary to that, the difference between the theist and the atheist is that I do not believe that claim to be true, while the atheist believes that claim to be true. Anyone can make a claim about anything, but the way we understand who believes what and why is by learning about what they believe. Concerning God, theists believe one exists, while atheists deny that any exist, those are both statements of belief or faith or trust or confidence of the truth of the matter.
Now, if you will not agree to this line of reasoning, then you should have a reasonable respond to the following.
If the so-called atheist does not believe that the following claim is true
No God exists
then by definition, they have just disqualified them self as an atheist. Being an atheist presupposes the belief that no God exists.
Definitions of atheism or atheist
From MicroSoft Bookshelf dictionary 2000
a·the·ism noun
1. a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
2. Godlessness; immorality.
From Merriam-Webster Dictionary @1994 electronic version.
athe•ist \"À-thÈ-ist\ n : one who denies the existence of God — athe•ism
But lets not stop there, one might false believe as you have been suggesting that one can claim that there is no God and be an atheist and not at the same time personally believe that claim to be true.
Definitions of belief
From MicroSoft Bookshelf dictionary 2000
be·lief noun
1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another.
2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something.
3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.
From Merriam-Webster Dictionary @1994 electronic version.
be•lief \ n 1 : confidence, trust 2 : something (as a tenet or creed) believed syn conviction, opinion, persuasion, sentiment
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.
You have a claim, and you have a person who is persuaded one way or another about that claim, giving their intellectual assent of trust or confidence or conviction of the truth of a claim, that IS belief. The positive denial of a belief in something at the same time is a belief against that same thing’s existance.
For one to claim
I do not believe in the existence of the tooth fairy
Holds the same meaning as saying
I believe that a tooth fairy does not exist.
Restating a positive denial as a negative affirmation is two sides to the same coin. And to suggest that the two are somehow not inextricably connected and equal, is to be irrational, illogical, and meaningless. (=s you and the atheists on this point.)
Also, if you first presuppose that there is a God, and those who disbelieve in that God are not believers in that God, then to state that all atheists are non-believers is to first assume that there is a God to not believe in, and so again we see that (even in this example) the denial of God’s existence presupposes God’s existence in order to understand the question and the answer. That really amounts to bad semantics and bad thinking, but the point remains. If a person believes a claim to be true, then to deny belief in that claim is immediately contradictory and makes no sense.
Jim, you said.
(1a) No, the atheist claims to not have belief. He claims to not have faith. (1b) That is impossible, (2) and to affirm the atheist's claim of not having faith is basically dishonest.
Do you see the circular un-resolvable contradictions you present? One step at a time.
(1a) A claim does not a belief or truth make. A claim is to be evalutated for its logic and truth integrity. Also, if the claim is directly contradictory, then instead of pretending like you can argue against it, just demonstrate that it is a contradiction and so it does all the arguing for itself and defeats itself.
(1b) – Right Jim, that is my point, I am choosing my words very carefully, please apprehend in like fashion,
Every atheist believes that that the claim, no God exists, is true (to one degree of confidence or another).
To deny belief in the non-existence of God is to deny what it means to be an atheist.
(2) No one is doing that, we are just not speaking about the same issue the way you want us to. God refers to atheists and idolaters, which is a presupposition that they exist. Your utter failure at addressing this bible fact highlights your lack of understanding. Secondly, and specifically to your point, has Bob Enyart or myself affirmed the atheist’s claim of having no faith? I’d say we have not, you say we have. I know you can not provide one shred of evidence to support your fallacious claim, so I will just let your empty and false words speak for themselves. And if you hadn’t noticed, I have been arguing that atheists believe in their beliefs all this time, so I find your argument to be fully in kind with your ignorance and false wishful thinking.
God’s word teaches that idolaters and atheists both exist, this bible observation is manifest, and so is the presumption that atheists believe that there is no God. So God’s word is true, and Jim is subject to error as you have been demonstrating all this time, namely, that it is wrong to do what God has done in the just aforementioned example. I do not contradict your bible passages, I simply try to be consistent with them. Your continued avoidance of this bible teaching demonstrates at the very least your biblical inconsistency.
Last, why have you joined the Athests camp? I would have assumed that you would prefer to stand on the rock, on the solid ground of the gospel truth instead of giving the atheists claims validity. You argue against me when I claim that atheists actually believe that no God exists. You both affirm that atheists are believers (in something not yet fully described), and you also counter-claim that atheists do not (truly) exist, reasoning that God has removed that option from mankind by His revelation to all of mankind, even though God demonstrates that atheists exist by teaching about their foolishness. (!!!) I remain consistent with God’s word and the truth in reality by saying that atheists do exist, the bible does not teach against something that does not exist, but you contradict this fact by pretending that atheists do not really exist. Then you flip back and forth on this point by saying that you address or reference atheists even though you do not believe they actually exist, THAT IS DUPLICITE, THAT IS BEING DISHONEST. So what if they say that they have no faith, great, so we both agree that they are wrong there too! But I will not become deluded into believing that their claim is true as you have, and then make the erroneous and false and biblically contradictory assumption that no atheist exists. Instead, I trust scripture on this point which has established that atheists exist, and then simply expose their lies and false teachings for what they are.
If you want to have integrity, that is, live your life in harmony with your beliefs, then the first step is to not violate them.
If you truly believed that there is no such thing as an atheist, then you would never discuss the issue again. NEVER. But since we all know conclusively that you DO believe that atheists exist, by virtue of your thousands of words of understanding about them, you make yourself out to be the fool, trusting in the claims of the fool in order to shape your response to them. You trust the atheist when he says he has no faith about the existence of God, that makes you foolish. You should instead expose their foolishness for what it is and believe that atheists do exist, and that their claim of having no faith is contradictory non-sense. Sure, their phony claims exist, but their claims are not true, and for the wise knowledgable Christian to deny the existence of atheists, is to join the ranks of foolish atheists who also falsely believe there is no God. You DO believe atheists exist, they have been at the forefront of your thoughts during this entire thread.
Forget all that foolishness, take God’s lead and follow His example, after presupposing that atheists exist, apply the teachings you find in God’s word about them. (To His glory, and our shame if we don’t.)
