Clete posted.......
:first: CONTEXTWell, I have to tell you that I don't even know where to begin. On an emotional level my reaction is a mixture of disbelief and disgust. It is unbelievable to me that anyone can believe in this nonsense. Please do not misunderstand, I am not trying to be personally insulting toward you Mr. Coffee, I'm responding to the teaching you've put forward, not to you personally. I know that you have the very best of intentions as did I when I believed what you've presented here but the fact remains that what you have presented is completely incompatible with anything that can call itself Godly or righteous. What you've presented, (which is perfectly normal Calvinist doctrine, so again, this isn't about you personally), is illogical, it is self-contradictory, and it is blasphemous. All of which I will be happy to establish in due time but for the sake of brevity I will not do so in this post.
Speaking of brevity, there is entirely too much there to respond point by point. It would take a week for me to write and no one would read it anyway so I won't even try to do that. I will instead concentrate on just one or two points which I think are particularly important to the debate as a whole and let the rest stand as simply a statement of the way you think the text should be taken which we can refer back to in later posts if it becomes necessary to do so.
First of all, I think that establishing that looking to Jeremiah 18 is a legitimate hermeneutical move to make in an effort to understand what Paul is saying, is key to the debate, and so I will start with that.
Mr. Coffee said in reference to the Potter and the clay story…
There are several troubling things here.It's a flexible metaphor, like clay itself, and so we cannot appeal to a specific Old Testament text to determine what Paul meant. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that it refers to Jer. 18 and God's response to a nation that repents. This actually accentuates the sovereignty of the potter, because repentance to salvation is a gift.
First of all let's look at your last phrase in this paragraph, "because repentance to salvation is a gift." I will not debate this here as it would not be on the topic of Romans 9 but I bring it up because of something I said in the beginning of my opening post. Let me quote what I said for you……let me say first that I think that the Bible interprets itself and must be taken as a whole but that I also believe that individual passages of Scripture must stand on their own without being logically incoherent. In other words, we are able to determine what a passage of Scripture is saying based solely on the context of the passage itself. We do not need a theological system in place before it is possible to figure out what a section of Scripture is saying. Now, there could be, I suppose, exceptions to this general rule but Romans chapter 9 is certainly not one of them. I'm saying this at the outset because I want to draw attention to the fact that I do not draw upon any theology to interpret this chapter but only upon other Bible passages which the text of Romans 9 makes reference too, all of which couldn't be any clearer and easy to understand than they are.I anticipated that you would be required to lean on your theology to make this chapter say a word about predestination; I just didn't think you would do so as completely as you have. There is virtually nothing in your post that makes any sense outside a decidedly Calvinist worldview. That is to say, the conclusions you draw do not lead you to Calvinism but it is Calvinism that leads you to draw your conclusions. This is backward and unbiblical. We should be careful at least at the outset of establishing our theology to allow the Bible to say what it is saying and nothing more, especially when discussing issues that deal with fundamental teachings such as salvation and faith. Once the basic teaching of the text is established then and only then will you be justified in drawing conclusions based on something more than the plain meaning of the text.
Secondly and more importantly let's look at the rest of what you've said here. " It's a flexible metaphor, like clay itself, and so we cannot appeal to a specific Old Testament text to determine what Paul meant. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that it refers to Jer. 18 and God's response to a nation that repents."
This is simply incorrect. Biblically speaking, this is not a flexible metaphor. There is a rule in hermeneutics known as the first mention principle. It is by no means an iron clad law to which we must adhere at all costs but it is a very well established and trusted hermeneutic principle that has stood the test of time and I think that we would ignore it at our own peril.
The first mention principle states simply that if you want to understand a phrase or a symbol used in Scripture, looking at the first time it is used is in the Bible is generally indicative of that phrase's or symbol's meaning throughout the Scripture. Using this principle there can be no doubt at all that the Potter is God and the clay vessels are the nations of the world.
However, even without the first mention principle it still cannot be denied what this symbolic language is used in reference to because, in addition to the first mention principle, you have a situation with the Potter and the clay reference where God Himself explains the meaning of the symbols in Jeremiah 18. This would trump even the first mention principle if that were necessary, which, in this case, it is not.
And if that were not enough you could ignore both the first mention principle and God's direct definition of the symbols and still not be able to honestly deny their meaning. I have taken the time to compile all the Scriptures that use the Potter and the clay symbols (that I could find, excluding the Jeremiah passage which we've already seen), including the very first usage for the sake of simply nailing this issue to the wall once and for all. I've highlighted where the passage is clearing talking about a nation or group of people, not individuals.
Psalm 2So there you have it. If that point is not firmly established then no point can be established at all. The metaphor is anything but flexible. It is used in reference to nations or groups of people 100% of the time. Any exception that might exist must be proven to exist by those claiming the exception. I don't believe that such an exception exists but even if I am wrong on that, the burden to prove that Romans 9 is one of them is firmly in your lap, not mine.
1 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3"Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us."
4He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The LORD shall hold them in derision.
5Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6"Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion."
7"I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
"You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel."'
10Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11Serve the LORD with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
Isaiah 29:13 Therefore the Lord said:
"Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
14Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work
Among this people,
A marvelous work and a wonder;
For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden."
15Woe to those who seek deep to hide their counsel far from the LORD,
And their works are in the dark;
They say, "Who sees us?" and, "Who knows us?"
16Surely you have things turned around!
Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay;
For shall the thing made say of him who made it,
"He did not make me"?
Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it,
"He has no understanding"?
(Verse 1 of Isaiah 29 reads," Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt!")
Isaiah 30: 8 Now go, write it before them on a tablet,
And note it on a scroll,
That it may be for time to come,
Forever and ever:
9That this is a rebellious people,
Lying children,
Children who will not hear the law of the LORD;
10Who say to the seers, "Do not see,"
And to the prophets, "Do not prophesy to us right things;
Speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits.
11Get out of the way,
Turn aside from the path,
Cause the Holy One of Israel
To cease from before us."
12Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel:
"Because you despise this word,
And trust in oppression and perversity,
And rely on them,
13Therefore this iniquity shall be to you
Like a breach ready to fall,
A bulge in a high wall,
Whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant.
14And He shall break it like the breaking of the potter's vessel,
Which is broken in pieces;
He shall not spare.
So there shall not be found among its fragments
A shard to take fire from the hearth,
Or to take water from the cistern."
Isaiah 41: 25"I have raised up one from the north,
And he shall come;
From the rising of the sun he shall call on My name;
And he shall come against princes as though mortar,
As the potter treads clay.
Isaiah 64:8But now, O LORD,
You are our Father;
We are the clay, and You our potter;
And all we are the work of Your hand.
9Do not be furious, O LORD,
Nor remember iniquity forever;
Indeed, please look--we all are Your people!
10Your holy cities are a wilderness,
Zion is a wilderness,
Jerusalem a desolation.
Lamentations 4:11 How the gold has become dim!
How changed the fine gold!
The stones of the sanctuary are scattered
At the head of every street.
2The precious sons of Zion,
Valuable as fine gold,
How they are regarded as clay pots,
The work of the hands of the potter!
Daniel 2:41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.
Now, I have a question for you concerning the Potter and the clay story which I think will serve to focus our debate away from such long posts. This should be a really easy question if you'll heed my advice about allowing the text to say what it says.
Why did the Potter remake the vessel?
I'll look forward to your response.
Resting in Him,
Clete
