Josephus Records Doctrine of Immorality of the Soul and Punishment

[Polycarp]

The Immortality of the Soul Taught by Christ and the Jews
Josephus, Confirms the Immortality of the Soul Taught

By Sabbatismus
Posted Friday, January 28, 2005 on All about Sabbath to Sunday
Discussion: Religion

It is popular among the Adventist and the former Armstrong followers to say that the doctrine of the immortality of the soul was invented or borrowed from paganism around 1000 AD or at the the time of the Dante. However, the facts are quite the opposite. In every case the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is taught by Christ in agreement with the Pharisees at the time of Christ. The famous historian Josephus records the explicit teaching of the Pharisees and Christ agrees with every word of it , as taught in the bible. The writings of the church from the first century forward and all martyrs all repeat the same doctrine contrary to that of the Seventh Day Adventist and the former Armstrong followers so called, "the Churches of God". Josephus writes of the beliefs of the Essenes, Pharisees and Sadducees in "Wars of the Jews" Book II, Chapter VII Paragraphs 10-14

NOTICE PARAGRAPH 11 AND 162. IT IS PERCISELY THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST'S TEACHING REGARDING THE SOUL AND THE PUNISHMENT OF THE WICKED.


"10. (150) Now after the time of their preparatory trial is over, they are parted into four classes; and so far are the juniors inferior to the seniors, that if the seniors should be touched by the juniors, they must wash themselves, as if they had intermixed themselves with the company of a foreigner. (151) They are long-lived also; insomuch that many of them live above a hundred years, by means of the simplicity of their diet; nay, as I think, by means of the regular course of life they observe also. They condemn the miseries of life, and are above pain, by the generosity of their mind. And as for death, if it will be for their glory, they esteem it better than living always; (152) and indeed our war with the Romans gave abundant evidence what great souls they had in their trials, wherein, although they were tortured and distorted, burnt and torn to pieces, and went through all kinds of instruments of torment, that they might be forced either to blaspheme their legislator, or to eat what was forbidden them, yet could they not be made to do either of them, no, nor once to flatter their tormentors, or to shed a tear; (153) but they smiled in their very pains, and laughed those to scorn who inflicted the torments upon them, and resigned up their souls with great alacrity, as expecting to receive them again.

11. (154) For their doctrine is this:—That bodies are corruptible, and that the matter they are made of it not permanent; but that the souls are immortal, and continue forever; and that they come out of the most subtle air, and are united to their bodies as in prisons, into which they are drawn by a certain natural enticement; (155) but that when they are set free from the bonds of the flesh, they then, as released from a long bondage, rejoice and mount upward. And this is like the opinion of the Greeks, that good souls have their habitations beyond the ocean, in a region that is neither oppressed with storms of rain, or snow, or with intense heat, but that this place is such as is refreshed by the gentle breathing of a west wind, that is perpetually blowing from the ocean; while they allot to bad souls a dark and tempestuous den, full of never-ceasing punishments. (156) And indeed the Greeks seem to me to have followed the same notion, when they allot the islands of the blessed to their brave men, whom they call heroes and demigods; and to the souls of the wicked, the region of the ungodly, in Hades, where their fables relate that certain persons, such as Sisyphus, and Tantalus, and Ixion, and Tityus, are punished; which is built on this first supposition, that souls are immortal; and thence are those exhortations to virtue, and exhortations from wickedness collected; (157) whereby good men are bettered in the conduct of their life, by the hope they have of reward after their death, and whereby the vehement inclinations of bad men to vice are restrained, by the fear and expectation they are in, that although they should lie concealed in this life, they should suffer immortal punishment after their death. (158) These are the divine doctrines of the Essenes about the soul, which lay an unavoidable bait for such as have once had a taste of their philosophy.

12. (159) There also those among them who undertake to foretell things to come, by reading the holy books, and using several sorts of purifications, and being perpetually conversant in the discourses of the prophets; and it is but seldom that they miss in their predictions.

13. (160) Moreover, there is another order of Essenes, who agree with the rest as to their way of living, and customs, and laws, but differ from them in the point of marriage, as thinking that by not marrying they cut off the principal part of the human life, which is the prospect of succession; nay rather, that if all men should be of the same opinion, the whole race of mankind would fail. (161) However, they try their spouses for three years; and if they find that they have their natural purgations thrice, as trials that they are likely to be fruitful, they then actually marry them. But they do not use to accompany with their wives when they are with child, as a demonstration that they do not marry out of regard to pleasure, but for the sake of posterity. Now the women go into the baths with some of their garments on, as the men do with somewhat girded about them. And these are the customs of this order of Essenes.

(162) But then as to the two other orders at first mentioned: the Pharisees are those who are esteemed most skillful in the exact explication of their laws, and introduce the first sect. These ascribe all to fate [or providence], and to God, (163) and yet allow, that to act what is right, or the contrary, is principally in the power of men, although fate does cooperate in every action. They say that all souls are incorruptible; but that the souls of good men are only removed into other bodies,—but that the souls of bad men are subject to eternal punishment. (164) But the Sadducees are those that compose the second order, and take away fate entirely, and suppose that God is not concerned in our doing or not doing what is evil; (165) and they say, that to act what is good, or what is evil, is at men’s own choice, and that the one or the other belongs so to every one, that they may act as they please. They also take away the belief of the immortal duration of the soul, and the punishments and rewards in Hades."

The Adventist and the Armstrong follwers make the same mistake that the Sadducees did. Christ condemned the Sadducees for their erroneous beliefs, He will condemn the Adventist and the Armstrong followers with them. Instead of preaching the gospel of Christ in truth, the Adventist and the Armstrong followers promise the wicked, the most wicked of all, "soul sleep" , "rest" and peace, while Christ promised the wicked eternal punishment. Soul sleep is music to the ears of the wicked. They love to hear how they won't be punished for their sins in everlasting punishment . The wicked do not repent because of the false gospel taught by the Adventist and the Armstrong followers. The atheist and the murder, the abortionist and the rapist, they all love the music of the promise of soul sleep" . But, how they hate the thought of everlasting punishment , lest they turn from their sins and repent.

"Wars of the Jews" Book II, Chapter VII
Web Link to Wars of Jospehus Book II http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-2.htm

Web Link to the Josephus "Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades" http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/hades.htm

 

[firechyld]

What of the theory that the doctrine of the immortality came to Judaism and hence Christianity through the Hellenic influence?

 

[Polycarp]

firechyld, there isn't any chance of that occurring. Those familiar with the Old Testament know that the immortality of the soul is taught from Genesis. Christ uses the most explicit of all to describe the both the immortality of the soul and eternal (unending) punishment.

 

[firechyld]

firechyld, there isn't any chance of that occurring. Those familiar with the Old Testament know that the immortality of the soul is taught from Genesis. Christ uses the most explicit of all to describe the both the immortality of the soul and eternal (unending) punishment.

Early Hebrew thought regarding Olam HaBa focussed on the idea of literal physical resurrection of the body. The idea of the soul as seperate to the body only appears later... hence the suggestion that it may be the result of Hellenic influence.

You sound pretty convinced, though, so don't fuss. Your initial post sounded more... open. *shrug*

 

[Polycarp]

firechyld, I would disagree. The first first chapters of Genesis make a distinction between the body and the soul. Gen.2:7 shows God breathing into the "nostrils" of a lifeless body . When He breaths in the spirit, it becomes a "living soul" . There begins the first contrast between a body and a soul. The spirit is joined into the body and it becomes a living body. As, much later James would write, the body without the spirit is dead, James 2:26.

I would also note, that the it is the body that is dead according to James, not the spirit. For that which is spirit cannot die. Like Christ again says in Mt.10:28, (they) can kill they body but ARE NOT ABLE to Kill the Soul" .

Again, in Genesis 35:18 makes a distinction of the soul departing the body at death. What begins in Genesis, clearly defines the distinction between the body and the soul is continued throughout the rest of scripture.

 

[freelight]

Immortality

Immortality

Originally posted by Polycarp

Those familiar with the Old Testament know that the immortality of the soul is taught from Genesis. Christ uses the most explicit of all to describe the both the immortality of the soul and eternal (unending) punishment.

Hi Polycarp,..............immortality of the soul appears to be a notion from the beginning of time. However as you know...such a doctrine is debated by certain bible-believing schools who see the soul as only being potentially immortal...or is not inherently immortal...but can only attain or receive immortality thru Gods bestowal. Otherwise...the soul is not immortal by nature. Of course we have the soul-sleep doctrine often tied with this school...but that asides.

Thru my research so far I tend to hold that the soul is 'immortal' only in the sense that it outlives the mortal body and continues on in a spiritual body. As a soul ascends in spiritual perfection and divine Love...it may be endowed with a more divine immortality that renders it more or less 'celestial'...and then that soul becomes a partaker of the divine nature....the very substance and likeness of divinity.

As far as 'unending punishment' or 'eternal torment' goes....I find these illogical to and inconsistent with divine justice and mercy. While souls may indeed survive physical death.....the law of compensation carries on as a universal law - souls only reap what they sow...........and according to the law of progress....a soul my repent, make amends for its sins....and progress in light and love. Everlasting punishment/torment cannot be meted out by a true God of Justice/Mercy....because such is neither just nor merciful........besides being completely unreasonable.

So...I find a more traditional spiritualist philosophy as actually being more sound than much of what passes as orthodox christian teaching on the souls progress, destiny and potential.

This is a fascinating subject and currently exploring many of the dimensions involved in this wonderful debate in other forums and my own personal research.


paul

 

[Polycarp]

Hi, Paul. thanks for the reply. Yeah, I'm familar with the "conditional mortality" theology like the SDA. With whom I do not agree because it is contrary to the scripture.

As to "everlasting punishment" , I can only say a this. Because, we are not God, we cannot precisely define what is just and what is not. If God so deems "eternal punishment" a just recompense for man's rebellion, then who would I be to judge God, as the Apostle Paul would say. This is the mistake the Adventist make. They judge God for the severity of his punishment rather than the enormity of their own sin. Often, there words in judging God are followed by blasphemous statements calling the true God, "Satan". Such a hardened state will rarely lead to repentance.

I do know from the context of the writings and teachings of the Rabbi's at the time, that when "eternal punishment" was used, it meant everlasting punishment in duration, as noted by Josephus and the Jewish and Christian writers that followed after Christ.

I don't know whether you had a chance to look at the links, but you can see that the one on "the Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades" uses exactly the same words as New Testament Scripture. The Rabbinical Schools of Christ's day mostly taught the same things as Josephus records, except the Sadducees where they were annhilationists.

You are correct, it is a fascinating study. There is a lot more I could say regarding this issue of everlasting punishment, that I've learned. I just don't have the time at the momment and I don't want to stray too far from the subject.

It's good corresponding with you.

 

[freelight]

duration of punishments....

duration of punishments....

Originally posted by Polycarp


As to "everlasting punishment" , I can only say a this. Because, we are not God, we cannot precisely define what is just and what is not. If God so deems "eternal punishment" a just recompense for man's rebellion, then who would I be to judge God, as the Apostle Paul would say. This is the mistake the Adventist make. They judge God for the severity of his punishment rather than the enormity of their own sin. Often, there words in judging God are followed by blasphemous statements calling the true God, "Satan". Such a hardened state will rarely lead to repentance.

I do know from the context of the writings and teachings of the Rabbi's at the time, that when "eternal punishment" was used, it meant everlasting punishment in duration, as noted by Josephus and the Jewish and Christian writers that followed after Christ.

I don't know whether you had a chance to look at the links, but you can see that the one on "the Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades" uses exactly the same words as New Testament Scripture. The Rabbinical Schools of Christ's day mostly taught the same things as Josephus records, except the Sadducees where they were annhilationists.

You are correct, it is a fascinating study. There is a lot more I could say regarding this issue of everlasting punishment, that I've learned. I just don't have the time at the momment and I don't want to stray too far from the subject.

It's good corresponding with you.

Hi Polycarp,

What you have attempted to establish by sharing Josephus 'records' is that he knew of the doctrine of 'immortality of the soul' and 'everlasting punishment' - sure, some of these notions were entertained probably even before Josephus and Jesus. This does not make them necessarily 'true'.

I tend to believe in the immortality of the soul....in at least meaning that the soul and/or spirit of man continues after death....for perhaps an indefinite amount of time as such is ruled by the laws of constitution of being and divine Providence.

However,.....just because the soul may be more or less 'immortal' as is traditionally held.....does not mean, prove or justify that punishment for sin must be endless or everlasting. So...if one is trying to support his logics of immortality of soul being tied to any concept of everlasting punishment....I see no grounds for it.

I shared on the illogics of 'endless punishment' in my previous post. In addition........'endless punishment' would serve no purpose and even to imagine that our Father would incur such is hardly a true representation of His divine justice and mercy. Justice would only have one pay for this sins in perfect accordance of its degree/severity...and after such payment is satisfied...and amends/restitution/repentance ensues....that one may return to harmony and continue in peace. Mercy would temper justice in ways that love and wisdom would always be present to minister to the sinnner in guiding him back upon the path of fidelity and goodness. In all Gods ways...there is a divine balance of justice/mercy....so both are always afforded in ALL His dealings.

So....I would propose that endless punishment would only happen if it were possible that a soul could punish himself by his own willful sin and unhappiness endlessly. (for God is certainly no perpetrator of eternal torment). However, I am inclined to be an eternal optimist......in believing that divine Will ultimately prevails and souls ascend in their own time...but all will be brought into the fullness of restoration.


paul

 

[logos_x]

Re: duration of punishments....

Re: duration of punishments....

Originally posted by freelight

Hi Polycarp,

What you have attempted to establish by sharing Josephus 'records' is that he knew of the doctrine of 'immortality of the soul' and 'everlasting punishment' - sure, some of these notions were entertained probably even before Josephus and Jesus. This does not make them necessarily 'true'.

I tend to believe in the immortality of the soul....in at least meaning that the soul and/or spirit of man continues after death....for perhaps an indefinite amount of time as such is ruled by the laws of constitution of being and divine Providence.

However,.....just because the soul may be more or less 'immortal' as is traditionally held.....does not mean, prove or justify that punishment for sin must be endless or everlasting. So...if one is trying to support his logics of immortality of soul being tied to any concept of everlasting punishment....I see no grounds for it.

I shared on the illogics of 'endless punishment' in my previous post. In addition........'endless punishment' would serve no purpose and even to imagine that our Father would incur such is hardly a true representation of His divine justice and mercy. Justice would only have one pay for this sins in perfect accordance of its degree/severity...and after such payment is satisfied...and amends/restitution/repentance ensues....that one may return to harmony and continue in peace. Mercy would temper justice in ways that love and wisdom would always be present to minister to the sinnner in guiding him back upon the path of fidelity and goodness. In all Gods ways...there is a divine balance of justice/mercy....so both are always afforded in ALL His dealings.

So....I would propose that endless punishment would only happen if it were possible that a soul could punish himself by his own willful sin and unhappiness endlessly. (for God is certainly no perpetrator of eternal torment). However, I am inclined to be an eternal optimist......in believing that divine Will ultimately prevails and souls ascend in their own time...but all will be brought into the fullness of restoration.


paul

Outstanding! :thumb:

 

[Polycarp]

Paul, I certainly understand your desire for all men to be saved and to be saved from everlasting punishment. That is fully congruant with the scriptures and the will of God. On the other hand, there is no promise of any such thing. Therein is the problem.

You touched on something regarding the soul punishing itself. Rabbinically speaking at the time of Christ, that is a common. For example, to "loose your soul" in scripture meant to loose the light of God's grace. There is something noticable about the first sin, they were separated from God and as soon as they were, they began suffering. The degree of suffering considerable and on going. What has been the preserving factor for most of mankind is the hope of eternal life after the suffering of this world. In one form or another, it means not only existence but joyful abundant life in the presence of God, in His light and in His Grace. Without this, you end up tormented by your great loss and never being able to find God's grace again.

 

[Polycarp]

The Eternal Punishment of the Soul

The Eternal Punishment of the Soul

Additional, there are explicit instances of the soul's punishment of itself suffering the loss of the Kingdom of God, used in the gospels. Here are a couple of examples.

Mt.8:Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is said to occur in outer darkness, which is the absence of light from God's grace. There the soul is able to remember what chance it had to enter the kingdom but would not. He countlessly remembers his sins that kept him out, the stubborness and refusal to repent and is tormented by it, described as "weeping and gnashing of teeth" . Even in this life, we see that humans experience this temporally at the loss of great opportunities that they passed up. They never forget them and are tormented by them.

In Mark 9, Christ uses the popular Rabbinic teaching of the worm of conscience, that "dieth not" and torments the wicked after death. Mk.9:. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched

In true far out fundamentalist fashion the SDA and Armstrong claim these are real worms. They simply haven't read or understand Jewish and Rabbinical teaching at the time of Christ. These worms were metaphors for the "worm of conscience" that would torment the wicked by their unrighteous deeds which they remembered for all eternity, that kept them from out of the kingdom of God.

Prisoners are often said to be tormented by their deeds. Like that of Scott Peterson, who wishes that he could take back that one moment, when he foolishly murdered his wife, and now must pay for it by countless hours of torment in prison for the single deed and never can he take it back. Likewise, the wicked are to always remember their deeds by which for the moment to fulfill the flesh will torment them by like the worm that eats at the conscience forever.

It's not a pretty picture but one finds that the things which are teach us eternal truths, are taught in scripture. Let all men beware.

 

[freelight]

the triumph of Love........

the triumph of Love........

Polycarp,

I understand your points. Certainly all who sin profoundly or pass up great opportunities may suffer regret and remorse. The conscience as long as it has some sensitivity and God-given consciousness....will mediate and be the internal judge of all souls who survey their plight/condition in the light of truth.

However,....while some sins certainly pain and torment the sinner.....who is to say that divine grace/mercy is not still extended to that soul?(in the hereafter). Is the not the mercy of the Lord everlasting? It stands to reason that as long as that soul actually does have the power/ability with Gods grace for repentance that time/space will be granted to that soul. Furthermore....we must also consider the sovereignty of Gods eternal LOVE.

In favor of the divine Will and Love ultimately winning out.....we may assume that eventually the soul will give in to love....and move out of his dark state into higher realms of light and soul perfection. As long as a soul can and has the opportunity afforfed it by divine grace....this allowance is consistent with true justice and mercy.(divine love/wisdom).

Now,...if it is truly possible that a soul can reach a place or condition that it is IMPOSSIBLE for that soul to repent, change, reform or be converted to greater light.....then perhaps it may be allowed to exist for all eternity in a dark and nefarious realm or a place that is consistent with its degree of depravity. This of course would be 'hell'....but one wonders what 'good' such an existence might be even though these poor souls are retained in hellish realms apart from higher realms of light. If souls can reach a 'point of no return'...then perhaps they would grovel in their own hells for eternity. This view has its own quandaries.

If however these souls are always afforded grace and may with the dawning of inspiration and longing for salvation be converted to a higher state of restoration....then the hells would serve their place for whatever period of time til that soul awakens to better places and begins to evolve Godward. In this case....the hells are NOT eternal....neither is punishment of a guilty or pained conscience forever...for such may serve to bring that soul back to light...that it may begin to satisfy the purpose of its existence and the Fathers eternal WILL.

If we are to hold to a concept of the innate immortality of the soul....this view IMO is much more sound and resonant with divine Love and Wisdom.

So....leaning on the magnitude and omnipotency of Gods Love and His divine Will.....one can see the logic of ultimate soul-salvation or restoration for all of Gods children. (ULTIMATELY).

A major issue that must be resolved or explored is - can a soul reach a 'point of no return'? ......and assuming its immortal....be stuck in a hell forever and ever and ever and ever? This would be a true 'death' of sorts....having been barred forever from the light of Gods redeeming grace. Yet how can a soul forever be excluded from the majesty of Gods eternal LOVE?


Let us think on these things.


paul

 

[Polycarp]

Eternal Punishment

Eternal Punishment

Yes, Paul and I certainly understand your reasoning. However, from scripture there is no promise that after death, reconcilation is possible. The scripture leads us to believe that once this earthly trial is over, there is no longer opportunity for repentance and salvation. Though, I do believe in a intermediate purging for some because temporal punishment is also given along with forgiveness of sin. Still the condition for temporal punishment is based on repentance in this life, not in the next.

Because the word, "eternal" can be limited to an age or ages or ages upon ages period of time, there is a least a possiblity that you could be correct, that in time it is possible. But, again there is nothing in scripture which lends itself to any certainty. Another, thought is that the end of age of punishment is finalized with annihilation, though that too, is purely speculative. Hence, the Jews generally believe that this place of punishment is only 12 months. Again, there is nothing said about this in scripture so that it only becomes purely speculation.

 

[freelight]

scripture not always sufficient to inform

scripture not always sufficient to inform

Hi Polycarp,

It is apparent that the scriptures are not perfect, complete, replete, sufficient to provide us with the details and assurances that some of our research and inquiries are requiring.

It is true that our lives here will effect our conditions in the afterlife and maybe its easier here to do all we can to make amends and live as righteously as possible to give us a headstart in our life in the spirit-world.....however most all souls will not have attained perfection on this side of the Veil. While the scriptures may not say much of the possibility of repentance in the afterlife....it remains quite reasonable that repentance is a continual function of the soul as it progresses ever Godward.

The scriptures deal mostly with life on earth.....as is most immedial and practical as we are living now as incarnated beings in the world. Logically the same spiritual laws governing soul progress apply in all realms, more or less. Therefore not much is said about the afterlife in the OT and only in the NT in an eschatological sense as such passages were apocalyptic in nature.

Where scripture is insufficient to inform us on these matters....speculation is inevitable of course. Such speculations can be afforded sound logical appeal....if they are ascertained within reason, logic and ethic in light of Gods eternal character - His justice and mercy........these ever being mediated thru His eternal Wisdom.

If the soul is innately immortal or of eternal existence......heaven and hell no matter of what degree or duration are states/conditions accepted and imposed by the free will of the souls themselves...within divine Providence.

I will not address the concept of soul-annihilation as the subject here is the immortality of the soul and eternal punishment.

This subject shows that the scriptures however inspired are not complete information sources for some of our inquires concerning the afterlife. This is obvious. Much light and additional info. can be found in NDE's, OBE's, and spirit-communications. These I have found provide some feasible data to help us in our estimations of the souls eternal sojourn and the different spirit-realms/spheres of the afterlife.


paul

 

[Polycarp]

I understand where you are coming from. The only thing about speculation, is that it is so speculative. In the realm of speculation anything is possible. The one thing sure about scripture is that is profitable for "doctrine" , "reproof" and instruction in righteousness. Being that doctrine is more sure than speculation, I would stand closer to that of the doctrine provided in the scripture as a sure foundation. That would leave speculation as just that, nothing sure and possibly and empty promise or hope.

 

[julie21]

Freelight: Much light and additional info. can be found in NDE's, OBE's, and spirit-communications.

Just one question from one who has followed the arguments of this thread...
And these things are of credible worth, compared to scripturally based doctrine on this matter?
Which weighs in heavier?
Interested to hear your ideas on this.

 

[freelight]

sound reasoning

sound reasoning

Originally posted by Polycarp

I understand where you are coming from. The only thing about speculation, is that it is so speculative. In the realm of speculation anything is possible. The one thing sure about scripture is that is profitable for "doctrine" , "reproof" and instruction in righteousness. Being that doctrine is more sure than speculation, I would stand closer to that of the doctrine provided in the scripture as a sure foundation. That would leave speculation as just that, nothing sure and possibly and empty promise or hope.

Hi Polycarp,

As we have shared,.....not all truth or information about certain subjects is provided in 'scripture'. This does not mean other sources, records and sciences cannot provide us further data ...enabling us to come to sound views and conclusions in areas where scripture is 'silent'.

When scripture, church doctrines, creeds, dogmas go contrary to sound logic, wisdom, conscience and reason.......I prefer to go with the latter for my own souls sake and the truths. I trust the inner monitor of the divine spirit and conscience within in these matters.......and not the inventions and doctrines of men....which are passed off as 'truths'.

If we are to maintain the immortality or eternal existence of the soul......then we must consider that a conscious entity will always have the free will liberties to change its course, condition and destiny as long as these powers of repentance are available within him. Only if you can prove...that somehow a soul can get to a certain stage or condition of depravity...that he is somehow forever 'bound' in a hell-state FOREVER and EVER.....then we may have something to go on...but that would be only a 'belief'....however sound or unsound. A belief just like the concept of souls being punished for eternity with no opportunity of emancipation/salvation....is a 'belief'. One can only assume that God allows some souls the option to get to a place of 'no return'...and therefore suffer as a soul.....for all eternity(doomed forever)....or at last be anihilated(expunged out of existence). Imagine that.

With scripture, church dogma, traditional doctrines and ignorance......many 'beliefs' emerge and have become believed by the masses.

It is at last up to each one to weigh these matters in their own soul in the Light of God....who is ETERNAL LOVE.

Either Love triumphs....or it does not.


paul

 

[freelight]

sharings from the spirit-world

sharings from the spirit-world

Originally posted by julie21

Just one question from one who has followed the arguments of this thread...
And these things are of credible worth, compared to scripturally based doctrine on this matter?
Which weighs in heavier?
Interested to hear your ideas on this.

Hi julie,

In my studies so far.....I found that information from spirits who have gone thru the death experience and relay their stories thru human intermediaries....provide wonderful data on the experience of death(the transition) and details of the afterlife, spiritual worlds, environs in which they find themselves in. Certainly an inhabitant of a spiritual realm or sphere in the Spirit-world would be more qualified to tell those on earth about these realms of actual reality....than scripture, invented dogmas or imaginations that share only very little if anything at all about the afterlife and the state of the souls therein.

I would say the testimony of those who are in the spirit-world have some 'credibility'...especially when other communications are compared...and many of these messages contain similar details of these realms...and the spiritual laws that are more evident there...as far as the souls eternal progress is concerned. Most of these communications of the higher order and more pure spirits.....relay the same truths of the spirit world which are universal.

Scripture can only provide so much as is used by the church as a rule of doctrine, instruction, reproof and other such matters - but the scriptures do not contain all truth (as if crystallized words from the past could!)......therefore we have the faculties of the soul and continual revelation to guide us. The Spirit of God and good spirits are ever guiding us in the Way.

So,....we can have our scriptures - they can only grant what they are allowed to give...within their own limited domain. Besides them...we have our conscience, faculties of reason/logic, spiritual sense, sensitivies....and the Spirit(s) of God to ever guide us. The Spirit of truth......or the spirit of what is true...is always first in all our considerations of a spiritual kind.

With that in mind.....if the spirit-communications that I research/study....have truth in them.....and such accords with all truth previously given in past dispensations(concerning divine nature and the laws that govern the souls progress).....then I shall like any other study or search....take the good and throw out the bad, if there be anything of no profit. I shall bring out the treasures of the store-house (both old and new)....and sort them accordingly.....for such is the Kingdom said the Master.

What is true....is always most weighty. It shall contain the solidity of pure gold. Like panning for gold is our spiritual research. When we find the true gold....feel it, hold it, possess it, ensoul it,......then we can readily discern the gold from the gravel which is of little or no value.

So far...many spirit-communications reveal that many hellish states or realms exist in the Spirit-world (like attracts like) and there are many worlds whose spiritual frequencies resonate on the same level as those that inhabit them. Souls find themselves in environs that are suited to their own vibration. Likewise.....there exist higher levels or spheres(realms) that are more heaven-like. Souls may progress from lower realms to higher ones as they satisfy the requirements to be further perfected and purified thru divine grace. Such is the law of progress.....if a soul should meet the requirements for such progress.(within a universalist understanding....all shall ultimately be restored to harmony with God). While these places actually exist.....we also have to consider the power of a souls own beliefs and imaginations that influence his perception of 'reality' in these more spiritual planes - it is true to a certain extant...that many create their own 'hell' or 'heaven'. Each soul is responsible for its own lot, condition and destiny.

When the Christ-Light dawns/appears....his reward is always with Him - and each are given according to their deeds.

It is important to have the essentials of what is true...and the natural/divine laws understood first....before we take on the doctrines of the church or any other institution - this way we always have what is essential to guide us..and the rest can be ordered thereby.


paul

 

[logos_x]

Christians in the twentieth century have primarily three views of the fate of the wicked:

* The Majority View: Eternal Torment
* The Minority View: Conditiuonal Immortality, Annihilation, or Eternal Death
* The Remnant View: Eventual Salvation Through Jesus Christ , the Restitution of All Things

The eternal torment view has been the majority view for about the last fifteen hundred years. The main Scriptures used to support that view are:

* Matthew 25:31-46
* Mark 9:38-48
* Luke 16:19-31
* Matthew 12:24-36
* John 3:35-36
* Revelation 19:19-21
* Revelation 20:7-10
* Revelation 20:11-15

The annihilation view has been the minority view since the beginning of church writings after the disappearance of the apostles. Some of the most ancient of the Christian writings taught this view. The Scriptures used to support this view are:

* 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
* 1 Thessalonians 5:3
* 1 timothy 6:9
* 1 Corinthians 5:5
* 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12
* Jeremiah 51:39,57
* Jeremiah 18:13-17
* Jeremiah 25:8-11
* Malachi 4:1-3
* Obadiah 1:15-16
* Matthew 10:28
* Revelation 20:11-15

What is today the remnant view was the majority view for the first five hundred years of Christianity. As a matter of fact, of the six theological schools we know existed in the second to fourth century, four of them believed in the salvation of all mankind, only one taught annihilation, and only one taught eternal torment, the school at Rome. The doctrine of eternal torment did not become popular until the fifth century when Augustine began to push it. Once the doctrine was firmly injected into the church, the church brought about the Dark Ages, which lasted about a thousand years.

Most Christians, when they are told their doctrines do not agree with the views of the early Christians, do not believe it. They are so certain that the Bible does not contradict itself and that their beliefs are based upon the Bible. Those who are in the majority and minority views often have those Scriptures that support their position memorized. Evangelists always use them at revival time to scare people into their church.

Following is a list of Scriptures that early Christians used to support their view that all mankind will be saved. Do they contradict the beliefs that you presently hold? If they do, does the Bible contradict itself? And if it doesn't, is it possible that the present church majority is wrong?

1. 1 Timothy 2:4 God will have all to be saved
2. 1 Timothy 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time
3. Ephesians 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will
4. John 12:47 Jesus came to save all
5. John 4:42 Jesus is the Savior of the world
6. 1 John 4:14 Jesus is the Savior of the world
7. John 12:32 Jesus draws all to Himself
8. Hebrews 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost
9. Colossians 1:15 Jesus is the firstborn of all creation
10. Colossians 1:16 By Him all things were created
11. Romans 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live
12. 1 Corinthians 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live
13. Ephesians 1:10 All come into Him at the fullness of times
14. 1 Corinthians 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed
15. Philippians 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord
16. 1 Corinthians 12:3 Cannot confess except by the Holy Spirit
17. Romans 11:26 All Israel will be saved
18. Acts 3:20-21 Restitution of all
19. Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people
20. Ephesians 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come
21. Hebrews 8:11-12 All will know God
22. Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all
23. Romans 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty
24. Colossians 1:20 All reconciled unto God
25. 1 Corinthians 4:5 All will have praise of God
26. James 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy
27. Revelation 15:4 All nations worship when judgments are seen
28. II Corinthians 5:17 New creation in Christ
29. Romans 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all
30. Romans 11:36 All out of God, through Him, and into Him
31. Ephesians 4:10 Jesus will fill all things
32. Revelation 5:13 All creation seen praising God
33. 1 Corinthians 15:28 God will be all in all
34. Revelation 21:4-5 No more tears, all things made new
35. John 5:25 All dead who hear will live
36. John 5:28 All in the grave will hear and come forth
37. 1 Corinthians 3:15 All saved, so as by fire
38. Mark 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire
39. Romans 11:15 Reconciliation of the world
40. II Corinthians 5:15 Jesus died for all
41. John 8:29 He always does what pleases His Father
42. Hebrews 1:2 He is heir of all things
43. John 3:35 All has been given into His hand
44. John 17:2 Jesus will give eternal life to all whom His Father gives to Him
45. John 13:3 The Father gave Him all things
46. I Timothy 4:9-11 Jesus is the Savior of all
47. Isaiah 46:10 God will do all His pleasure
48. Daniel 4:35 God's will done in heaven and earth
49. Proverbs 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps
50. Proverbs 19:21 Man devises, but God's counsel stands
51. Psalms 33:15 God fashions all hearts
52. Deuteronomy 32:39 God kills and makes alive
53. Psalms 90:3 God turns man to destruction then says "return"
54. Lamentations 3:31,32God will not cast off forever
55. Isaiah 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord's house
56. Genesis 18:18 All families of earth will be blessed
57. Isaiah 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified
58. Psalms 138:4 All kings will praise God
59. Psalms 72:18 God only does wondrous things
60. Psalms 86:9 All nations will worship God
61. Psalms 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God
62. Psalms 66:3-4 Enemies will submit to God
63. Isaiah 19:14-25 Egypt and Assyria will be restored
64. Ezekiel 16:55 Sodom will be restored
65. Psalms 22:25-29 All will turn to the Lord and all families will worship before Him
66. Psalms 145:9-10 He is good to all and merciful to all His work
67. Psalms 145:14 God raises all who fall
68. Psalms 145:16 God satisfied the desire of the living
69. Psalms 145:10 All God's will praise Him
70. Isaiah 25:6 Lord makes feast for all people
71. Isaiah 25:7 Will destroy veil that is spread over all nations
72. Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory
73. Jeremiah 32:35 Never entered His mind to burn people in fire
74. Psalms 135:6 God does what pleases Him

Of these, I put scripture references that are relevent toward an understanding of the possibility of turning back to God after physical death in bold italics....however, if there is no repentance and restoration after physical death, none of these verses would even be possible!
So, the common belief that "scripture leads us to believe that once this earthly trial is over, there is no longer opportunity for repentance and salvation" is not entirely accurate.

 

[Polycarp]

"All" doesn't necessarily mean 100%

"All" doesn't necessarily mean 100%

Thanks for the study. The word "All" doesn't necessarily mean "all in all" meaning 100% . While the general meaning can refer to most without meaning 100% of all. In noticed you quoted the scripture and the text for all being saved, yet did not for the others.