Jacob saw God and wrestled with Him

[beameup]

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him and he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. - Genesis 32:24-30

 

[Mark M]

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him and he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. - Genesis 32:24-30

Some say it was an angel, or even Jesus Christ.

 

[Mark M]

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him and he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. - Genesis 32:24-30

1 John 4:12 John 1:18

 

[beameup]

Some say it was an angel, or even Jesus Christ.

Yet another Old Testament appearance of the pre-incarnate Son of God.
He the visible manifestation of God and goes by many titles/names in the Tanakh.

 

[beameup]

You would think that, with all the appearances of God in the form of a man, Jews would be able to put-the-pieces-together and "figure it out". But they are "stuck" on Deuteronomy 6:4 like a "mantra".

Moses used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look at the glory of God that was fading away (from his face). But their [Jews] minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord [Yeshua], the veil is taken away. - 2 Corinthians 3:13-16 NASB

 

[CherubRam]

Jacob saw "a god." That god was also called a (angel / messenger.) It is not possible for flesh and blood men to see God's true form without it killing them. Only Christ has seen God's true form because he is from the kingdom of heaven.

 

[CherubRam]

Yet another Old Testament appearance of the pre-incarnate Son of God.
He the visible manifestation of God and goes by many titles/names in the Tanakh.

It is true that Christ has many names and titles, but he is not the Father or Holy Spirit of a trinity.

 

[Tambora]

You would think that, with all the appearances of God in the form of a man, Jews would be able to put-the-pieces-together and "figure it out". But they are "stuck" on Deuteronomy 6:4 like a "mantra".

Not all the Jews were stuck on Deut. 6:4, but recognized there was a unity of persons that comprised GOD.

How can they (the three) be One? Are they verily One, because we call them One ? How Three can be One, can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit. - Zohar, vol. ii. p. 43, versa., 22.

Come and see the mystery of the word hwhy, Jehova: there are three steps, each existing by itself; nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. - Zohar, vol. iii. Amsterdam edition. 65.

The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three Heads, which are united in One, and that Head is thrice exalted. The Ancient Holy one is described as being Three; it is because the other Lights emanating from Him are included in the Three. Yet the Ancient One is described as being two. The Ancient One includes these two. He is the Crown of all that is exalted; the Chief of the chief, so exalted, that He cannot be known to perfection. Thus the other lights are two complete ones, yet is the Ancient Holy One described complete as one, and He is one, positively one; thus are the other lights united and glorified in because they are one. - Zohar, vol. iii. Amsterdam edition. 288.

. . . the exalted Shechinah comprehends the Three highest Sephiroth; of Him (God) it is said, (Ps. lxii. 12), "God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this." Once and twice means the Three exalted Sephiroth, of whom it is said: Once, once, and once; that is, Three united in One. This is the mystery. - Rabbi Simeon ben Jochai, The Propositions of the Zohar, cap. 38, Amsterdam edition. 113

Rabbi Simeon ben Jochai wrote a fascinating passage recorded in the Zohar that is as clear a discussion of the mystery of the Trinity as you could find in any Christian theology text. Rabbi Simeon comments on the text found in Deuteronomy 32:39: "See now that I, I am he, and Elohim is not with me." He said: "Friends, here are some profound mysteries which I desire to reveal to you now that permission has been given to utter them. Who is it that says, 'See now that I, I am He?' This is the Cause which is above all those on high, that which is called the Cause of causes. It is above those other causes, since none of those causes does anything till it obtains permission from that which is above it, as we pointed out above in respect to the expression, 'Let us make man.' 'Us' certainly refers to two, of which one said to the other above it, 'Let us make,' nor did it do anything save with the permission and direction of the one above it, while the one above did nothing without consulting its colleague. But that which is called 'the Cause above all causes,' which has no superior or even equal, as it is written, 'To whom shall ye liken me, that I should be equal?' (referring to Isaiah 40:25), said, 'See now that I, I am he, and Elohim is not with me,' from whom he should take counsel, like that of which it is written, 'and God said, Let us make man.'"

Another famous Jewish scholar, Rabbi Eliezer Hakkalir, who lived at the time of Rabbi Simeon ben Jochai, also taught the scriptural doctrine that there were three distinct Beings revealed in the one unified Godhead. In his commentary on Genesis 1:1, Rabbi Hakkalir wrote the following: When God created the world, He created it through the Three Sephiroth, namely, through Sepher, Sapher and Vesaphur, by which the Three twywh (Beings) are meant . . . The Rabbi, my Lord Teacher of blessed memory, explained Sepher, Sapher, and Sippur, to be synonymous to Ja, Jehovah, and Elohim meaning to say, that the world was created by these three names.

 

[CherubRam]

The Zohar is the foundational work in the literature of Jewish mystical thought. Mysticism is a sin.

 

[jamie]

Jacob saw "a god." That god was also called a (angel / messenger.) It is not possible for flesh and blood men to see God's true form without it killing them. Only Christ has seen God's true form because he is from the kingdom of heaven.

In the beginning Christ was with God and Christ was God.

 

[beameup]

Jacob saw "a god." That god was also called a (angel / messenger.) It is not possible for flesh and blood men to see God's true form without it killing them. Only Christ has seen God's true form because he is from the kingdom of heaven.

Not true. God has appeared in a human-like form many many times in the Old Testament. The Son was "tabernacled" in human flesh.

 

[CherubRam]

In the beginning Christ was with God and Christ was God.

Theon and Theos
They both mean Divine, but in different cases. Theos is the nominative, Theon is accusative. Another form is Theou, which is genitive.

John 1:1 reads: “In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [τὸν θεὸν, (TON THEON) literally, the only Divine Eternal], and the Word was divine. [θεὸς].”

In the first instance (“the Word was with the only Divine Eternal”) it is in the accusative case and thus is spelled θεὸν [theon] But in the second occurrence it is in the nominative case, and so it is spelled θεὸς [theos]

 

[CherubRam]

Not true. God has appeared in a human-like form many many times in the Old Testament. The Son was "tabernacled" in human flesh.

You are overlooking the fact that the person was called a (angel / messenger) of God.

 

[beameup]

You are overlooking the fact that the person was called a (angel / messenger) of God.

Many examples in the O.T. show the Son of God, appearing as a man, being worshipped.
Also, the passages clearly state that it was God that appeared to them. Angels do not accept "worship".

 

[CherubRam]

Many examples in the O.T. show the Son of God, appearing as a man, being worshipped.
Also, the passages clearly state that it was God that appeared to them. Angels do not accept "worship".

I would be interested in seeing an Old Testament verse that says the Jews worshiped the Son of God.

 

[beameup]

I would be interested in seeing an Old Testament verse that says the Jews worshiped the Son of God.

Do you have fingers on your hands? Do you know how to use Bible Software?
Do you know how to do a "search"?
Face it, you are not at all "interested". :nono:

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which speak of me. - John 5:39

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. - John 5:46

 

[jamie]

In the first instance (“the Word was with the only Divine Eternal”) it is in the accusative case and thus is spelled θεὸν [theon] But in the second occurrence it is in the nominative case, and so it is spelled θεὸς [theos]

Was Theos with Theon in the beginning?

 

[CherubRam]

Do you have fingers on your hands? Do you know how to use Bible Software?
Do you know how to do a "search"?
Face it, you are not at all "interested". :nono:

The reason I asked you is because I find no such scriptures.

 

[CherubRam]

Was Theos with Theon in the beginning?

Yes, but God existed before the son.

 

[jamie]

Yes, but God existed before the son.

Who said? Since the Son created everything that was made, what beginning are you referring to?