ECT Its Just Not There

[Danoh]

Ever since I first read the off-base conclusion held by some on here: that Romans 2:17 is referring, not to Jews, but to Gentiles, I have searched in vain for evidence that such is the case.

I continue to find that Paul is referring to Jews in that passage.

Meaning that those who assert some proselyte conclusion, well, not only does it put in question their obviously odd approach to that passage, but what's behind how they have ended up at some of their other, equally odd conclusions.

Ok, your turn, heir.

Lol, I can already see that cartoon of that biker; its hair on fire, rushing to voice its self-righteous indignation :rotfl:

A good ribbing aside; you and yours are simply off-base in this Romans 2:17 conclusion of yours.

 

[jamie]

I continue to find that Paul is referring to Jews in that passage.

And this one: "Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?" (Romans 7:1 NKJV)

 

[OCTOBER23]

It looks like it is talking to or about a Person who claims to be a Self-Righteous Jew.

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good,
to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:
and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

 

[Interplanner]

Ever since I first read the off-base conclusion held by some on here: that Romans 2:17 is referring, not to Jews, but to Gentiles, I have searched in vain for evidence that such is the case.

I continue to find that Paul is referring to Jews in that passage.

Meaning that those who assert some proselyte conclusion, well, not only does it put in question their obviously odd approach to that passage, but what's behind how they have ended up at some of their other, equally odd conclusions.

Ok, your turn, heir.

Lol, I can already see that cartoon of that biker; its hair on fire, rushing to voice its self-righteous indignation :rotfl:

A good ribbing aside; you and yours are simply off-base in this Romans 2:17 conclusion of yours.

He is saying the same thing to both--that God has given each a standard by which they will be judged. For non-Jews, there are ethical standards that are written on their hearts that they don't keep. For Jews it was revealed. But the result is the same, that there is no difference, or, will be no difference on the day of judgement.

 

[DAN P]

Ever since I first read the off-base conclusion held by some on here: that Romans 2:17 is referring, not to Jews, but to Gentiles, I have searched in vain for evidence that such is the case.

I continue to find that Paul is referring to Jews in that passage.

Meaning that those who assert some proselyte conclusion, well, not only does it put in question their obviously odd approach to that passage, but what's behind how they have ended up at some of their other, equally odd conclusions.

Ok, your turn, heir.

Lol, I can already see that cartoon of that biker; its hair on fire, rushing to voice its self-righteous indignation :rotfl:

A good ribbing aside; you and yours are simply off-base in this Romans 2:17 conclusion of yours.

Hi and why doubt Rom 2:17 as the Greek word JEW / LOUDAIOS is in the text and do not see the Greek word ETHNO / GENTILE there at all !!


dan p

 

[Danoh]

Hi and why doubt Rom 2:17 as the Greek word JEW / LOUDAIOS is in the text and do not see the Greek word ETHNO / GENTILE there at all !!


dan p

Yep, Paul first opens his case against both.

Then he proceeds to indict the Gentile in his part.

Followed by self-rightous Gentile hypocrite.

Then, in Rom. 2:17, he proceeds to indict the self-righteous hypocrite Jew; who went about in hiding his hypocrisy behing his his being "called a Jew," etc.

He then returns to his opening argument to end all that with...

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

 

[heir]

Ever since I first read the off-base conclusion held by some on here: that Romans 2:17 is referring, not to Jews, but to Gentiles, I have searched in vain for evidence that such is the case.

I continue to find that Paul is referring to Jews in that passage.

Meaning that those who assert some proselyte conclusion, well, not only does it put in question their obviously odd approach to that passage, but what's behind how they have ended up at some of their other, equally odd conclusions.

Ok, your turn, heir.

Lol, I can already see that cartoon of that biker; its hair on fire, rushing to voice its self-righteous indignation :rotfl:

A good ribbing aside; you and yours are simply off-base in this Romans 2:17 conclusion of yours.

Paul is clearly speaking to Gentiles.

Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.



Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

 

[Nick M]

Paul is clearly speaking to Gentiles.

Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.



Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Right. Gentiles, who are called Jews, because they are proselytes.

 

[Danoh]

Paul is clearly speaking to Gentiles.

Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.



Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Come on, heir!

First you assert "the Romans were not in the Body, they were proselytes who had a faith well spoken of throughout the world..."

Then you assert that the stinging indictment that Paul lays out against the lost, hypocritical, self-righteous Jew beginning in Romans 2:17 is actually eferring to these Gentile proselytes.

:doh:

You Almost Acts 28er, you, lol

 

[Danoh]

Right. Gentiles, who are called Jews, because they are proselytes.

No, Nick; that is not the sense of that.

 

[Nick M]

No, Nick; that is not the sense of that.

It means what it says.

First is his audience.

7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
13 Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you (but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles.

They are gentiles in Rome. Gentiles mean those that are not Israel. But they were gentiles that were proselytized to Israel as he says here:

17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,

So these gentiles are going to be familiar to the promises made to Israel. They came to God through Israel, exalting her and keeping of the law. What Paul wants to do is share his gospel with these gentiles. His gospel is not the same as Israel’s good news. They have the same savior but a different ministry and mission. They in Rome knew they were to show their faith by their works. They did not have his good news.

15 So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also.

 

[ClimateSanity]

Paul is clearly speaking to Gentiles.

Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.



Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

How does someone get Jews out of that?

 

[heir]

Right. Gentiles, who are called Jews, because they are proselytes.

Amen, brother!

 

[Interplanner]

How does someone get Jews out of that?

You get (communication to the Jews) out of that because he had told them the exact same things that are said there!

Apparently you don't know the demographic history of the letter to Romans. That group was primarily Jewish until the eviction of all Jews from Rome by Claudius, 52 AD, I think. Acts 18:2. Obviously, the group is now entirely Gentile, but after a few years and a new emperor, Jews are let back in. This is the setting when the letter is written. The returning Jews are scratching their heads at how the group could have functioned without them. And there are several ethical or praxis issues that need to be smoothed out, ch 14-15. So in 11 when Paul says, "I'm saying this to you Gentiles" it does not mean Jews are absent or not listening! They've already heard it all.

 

[Danoh]

You get (communication to the Jews) out of that because he had told them the exact same things that are said there!

Apparently you don't know the demographic history of the letter to Romans. That group was primarily Jewish until the eviction of all Jews from Rome by Claudius, 52 AD, I think. Acts 18:2. Obviously, the group is now entirely Gentile, but after a few years and a new emperor, Jews are let back in. This is the setting when the letter is written. The returning Jews are scratching their heads at how the group could have functioned without them. And there are several ethical or praxis issues that need to be smoothed out, ch 14-15. So in 11 when Paul says, "I'm saying this to you Gentiles" it does not mean Jews are absent or not listening! They've already heard it all.

The point was who is Paul referring to in Romans 2:17's "called a Jew..."?

Who is he blaming for the name of God having been blasphemed among the Gentiles "because of you, as it is written," Rom. 2:24?

Is it the Romans he opened the letter with - whose "faith...througout the whole world" he sang the praises of in Rom. 1:8?

 

[turbosixx]

Ever since I first read the off-base conclusion held by some on here: that Romans 2:17 is referring, not to Jews, but to Gentiles, I have searched in vain for evidence that such is the case.

I continue to find that Paul is referring to Jews in that passage.

Meaning that those who assert some proselyte conclusion, well, not only does it put in question their obviously odd approach to that passage, but what's behind how they have ended up at some of their other, equally odd conclusions.

Ok, your turn, heir.

Lol, I can already see that cartoon of that biker; its hair on fire, rushing to voice its self-righteous indignation :rotfl:

A good ribbing aside; you and yours are simply off-base in this Romans 2:17 conclusion of yours.

I agree, he is talking about Jews in the flesh.
23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," just as it is written.

 

[Danoh]

I agree, he is talking about Jews in the flesh.
23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," just as it is written.

Just goes to show that along with the principle "it means what it says" is the principle "compare the passages for what it means."

And "rightly divide" the passages (as, sometimes, what a word, phrase, sentence structure means in one place, may not mean the same in a different setting, place, or time).

Case in point - in Acts 2, Peter is talking to all the house of Israel when he asserts:

2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

And he is talking about a promise made to all the house of Israel:

2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God will call.

What promise is he talking about and who is he referring to at the end of verse 39 at this point in Acts?

Dan 9:

2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:

7 O LORD, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.

Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

Acts 2:

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

 

[Nick M]

Actually, it says to "rightly divide the word of truth". Now the first thing is to define the word of truth. Doing that will help with Romans, if one is struggling on figuring out the audience.

 

[Danoh]

Actually, it says to "rightly divide the word of truth". Now the first thing is to define the word of truth. Doing that will help with Romans, if one is struggling on figuring out the audience.

No struggle here.

But if you insist - it is Paul's God given word of truth that is relating what it is about the self-righteous Jew.

Keep in mind that I do not hold to the Acts 28 teaching that Paul taught a Mystery in Romans that differs from the one he writes about in Ephesians.

I hold the standard view held by most within Mid Acts - that Ephesians is an expansion of Romans. Paul himself says as much to the Romans, in Romans 15:

And how odd that Paul would refer to Roman Gentiles, who were supposedly not saved, as "brethren."

Rom 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another. 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand. 15:22 For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you. 15:23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you; 15:24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.

It is also obvious that Paul views his Mystery gospel of (about or concerning) Christ as the gospel of (from) God.

Get the terms off, build on that, and next thing one knows, one is seeing all sorts of distinctions that are not there.

Peter's Prophesied gospel of (about or concerning) Christ is also of (or from) God.

1Pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1Pet 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

One God - Two Fold Purpose - "OF GOD."

One Prophesied, Acts 3:19-21

One A Mystery, til made known through Paul's prophetic preaching and writings, Rom. 16:25, 26.

 

[Nick M]

Ephesians 1

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The gospel is divided. The good news of circumcision (Jews) is committed unto Peter and the good news of uncircumcision (Gentiles) is committed unto Paul.

The Gentiles in Rome were of circumcision, but Paul was ready to preach his gospel to them.