Islam According to Oprah

drbrumley

Well-known member
Islam According to Oprah
Is Oprah Winfrey a threat to national security?

By Rod Dreher, columnist for the New York Post
October 8, 2001 11:45 a.m.


s Oprah Winfrey a threat to national security? No, but now that the war has begun, I worry about her, and here's why.

The nation cannot afford the naive illusions that have given many Americans comfort in peacetime. Chief among them is the notion, repeated ad nauseam by our leaders and the media, that Islam is a religion of peace. This may not be an outright lie, but it is so far from the full truth as to approach falsehood.

Americans have been told that they shouldn't attack the Muslims among us, and only the lowest of the low would disagree. The American people, with very few exceptions, have risen to the challenge to be humane, decent, and loving toward Muslims in this country. Well and good.

Americans by nature want to think the best of those from other cultures. But we run the risk of blinding ourselves to the nature of the threat facing our country and our civilization. In his 1996 book The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order, Harvard's Samuel P. Huntington warned us of deluding ourselves about the true nature of the Islamic threat.

"Some Westerners, including President Bill Clinton, have argued that the West does not have problems with Islam but only with violent Islamist extremists," Huntington wrote. "Fourteen hundred years of history demonstrate otherwise."

We can sit around making diversity quilts and thinking happy thoughts, or we can, with charity, commit ourselves to soberly assessing the historical and present-day reality of "peaceful" Islam, and its relations with non-Muslims.

Which brings us to Oprah. Last Friday, she devoted her program to "Islam 101," purportedly a crash course in the Mohammedan faith for her vast television audience of clueless Americans. It was grossly imbalanced and extremely dishonest. In fact, given how many Christians and other non-Muslims are horrifically persecuted today by Muslims in the name of Islam, it amounted to offensive propaganda.

Oprah called Islam "the most misunderstood of the three major religions" — yet did her best to add to the confusion by candy-coating the complicated truth about the Muslim faith. If you were to take Oprah's show as your guide to Islam, you would think Muslims were basically Episcopalians in veils and turbans.

Take her interview with Queen Rania of Jordan, a lovely, modern young woman who looks more at home in the pages of Vogue than in a hijab. The queen said that Islam "doesn't impose anything" on people — an absurd lie. Oprah asked her about the so-called "honor killings" of women in Jordan, murders committed by men against women in their families who are believed to have shamed the clan. For example, some young women who have been raped are in turn murdered by their male relatives for having stained the family's honor.

Progressive forces, supported by the palace and Jordan's Islamic religious establishment, tried to outlaw these killings in 1999, but were thwarted by the conservative Islamist party in Parliament. Queen Rania, reflecting establishment opinion, told Oprah that honor killings were a "cultural" phenomenon.

If that's true, then why have pre-Islamic Arabic tribal customs been taken up and spread throughout the Muslim world? Moreover, many Islamic religious leaders endorse them, or lesser violent punishment of women for the same dubious offenses.

Anyway, if one grants, for the sake of argument, the queen's contention that the Koran doesn't endorse honor killings, so what? Clearly very many Muslims believe honor killings are Islamic doctrine, and act on those beliefs — and we must be aware of that, and let that reality inform our judgment. If one were a Jew in Torquemada's Spain, it would be useless to be told that the Inquisition was a betrayal of Christianity. Theological disputes would be ancillary to the question of survival: what would matter would be how the local Christians interpreted their faith.

Queen Rania's dismissal of Muslim behavior that brings discredit upon Islam as un-Islamic brings to mind the bankrupt apologies leftists made during the Cold War for Communism. When the wickedness of the Soviets, or other Communist forces, could not be denied, it was claimed that these people did not represent "true" Communism. They may have actually believed that, but those who would be victims of real Communists, not theoretical Communists, didn't have that luxury.

Dr. Maleeha Lodhi, the Pakistani ambassador to the United States, turned up to say that "There is nothing in Islam that does not accord women equal rights." Oprah did not ask her to name one Muslim society in which women enjoy equal rights in the Western sense, because the ambassador would have had to remain silent. Or perhaps not: she had no trouble lying when she asserted that it was "absolutely untrue" that some people in her nation had taken to the streets to celebrate the September 11 attack.

Other quotes, from the program (available at www.oprah.com):

— "Muslims do not think that there is a non-Islamic world out there that we have to conquer. That is not the concept in Islam. Our job is to get to know one another, and the more we do that the better off we are."

— "The main thing we would like non-Muslims to know about our religion is that we're not so different from them."

— "I would like to reassure the American public that Islam does not preach violence."

— "Islam and Christianity and Judaism, and all the world's religions share a common heritage. We come from the same root. And our prophets and the characters in our holy books are the same. In Islam, all the religions are permitted to exist in peace with these others until Judgement Day."

That Oprah let these statements be broadcast unchallenged is appalling, an absurd fantasy that ignores the enormous suffering actual Muslims are inflicting on non-Muslim populations worldwide. "Wherever one looks along the perimeter of Islam, Muslims have problems living peaceably with their neighbors," Harvard's Huntington wrote. "Muslims make up about one-fifth of the world's population but in the 1990s they have been far more involved in intergroup violence than the people of any other civilization. The evidence is overwhelming."

In Sudan, the Muslim government in Khartoum imposed Islamic law nationwide in 1993, and has killed 2 million Sudanese Christians and animists, and enslaved countless more, in an attempt to Islamize the country. Coptic Christians in Egypt, whose presence in that country predates the arrival of Islam, have been slaughtered by fundamentalist Muslims, with authorities doing little or nothing to stop them.

In the Philippines and East Timor, Christians are being massacred by Muslims. Churches and Christian homes in Nigeria are being burned, and Christians murdered, by Muslim extremists. Arab Christians are oppressed by Muslims in the Holy Land, too. In Nazareth, Muslims are building a mosque just steps from the Basilica of the Annunciation, and make no secret of their intent to provoke and intimidate Christians. An imam in Gaza earlier this year broadcast a sermon over Palestinian Authority radio calling on Muslims to murder Christians and Jews as their Islamic duty. The ancient Christian presence in many Arab lands — Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, among others — has been decimated in the last century by Muslim persecution.

The list goes on and on. While it is true that there are relatively peaceful Muslims who wish us no harm — the Sufis of Turkey come to mind, but there are others — it is unarguable that very many Muslims and their leaders despise non-Muslims, attack us rhetorically in religious terms, and wish to see us die for our infidelity to Allah. To these Muslims, many of whom are Wahhabi (the Muslim sect that, according to Islam scholar Stephen Schwartz, accounts for 80 percent of the imams in the United States today), there are two worlds: that of Islam, and that of war. No compromise is possible between them.

What can possibly be gained from ignoring this ugly reality? Nothing — and a great deal to be lost. As Andrew Sullivan notes in Sunday's New York Times Magazine, our leaders' "laudable" post-9/11 efforts to discourage seeing the conflict in religious terms "doesn't hold up under inspection."

"The religious dimension of this conflict is central to its meaning," Sullivan writes, adding that it would be "naive to ignore in Islam a deep thread of intolerance toward unbelievers, especially if those unbelievers are believed to be a threat to the Islamic world."

It's naive to ignore it on a macro level, and it's naive to ignore it on a micro level, too. We know that the Muslims who carried out the 9/11 attacks lived for years peacefully among other Americans. We also know that they couldn't have carried out their operations without the support of others. Further, we know that some mosques and Islamic institutions in this country have been helpful to the jihadists. Believing that the threat to America comes simply from foreign Islamic extremists may make Oprah viewers feel better, but it's dangerous — and it lets moderate, patriotic American Muslims evade their responsibility to repudiate and root out fundamentalists among them. In Sunday's New York Times, a reporter wrote of interviews she had with Muslim American students right here in my own Brooklyn neighborhood. One of the male students said, on the record, that he would abandon the United States and give his own life to back an "observant Muslim who is fighting for an Islamic cause." Oprah honey, this is called sedition, and if there is an Islamic fifth column in this country, the American public needs to know about it.

American Muslims understandably feel pressured now to show the non-Muslim majority that they are no threat, and well-meaning dolts like Oprah are key to this effort. Watching Oprah's "Islam 101" program, I thought of the Lebanese Catholics at my church, who stopped me after a prayer service for the World Trade Center dead to talk, on the record, about the anti-Arab persecution they feared coming.

They all said they knew plenty of Muslims here in New York who were peace-loving people, and that it would be wrong to think ill of them. I asked these Arab Christians if these Muslims supported terrorist organizations, monetarily or otherwise. Every one of them said yes, sheepishly. After the interview was over, the group asked me not to use their last names. They were afraid of being physically attacked by Muslims in their neighborhoods — this, for standing up for America in print.

"That's amazing," I said to them. "You are all Christians living in the United States of America, yet you are afraid to have your names attached to patriotic statements, out of fear that your Muslim neighbors, the same people you are defending to me, will attack you. What does that say about the reality of Islam in America?"

They did not answer me, because they had no answer. Think about that next time you're told that Islam is a religion of peace. There's more to the story than what Oprah is telling you.
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
Well, she fell off the turnup truck on this..... thats for sure. Shoot, she is always off her turnup truck.
 

Gerald

Resident Fiend
From the article posted by drbrumley:
"...if there is an Islamic fifth column in this country, the American public needs to know about it."
The $64,000 question is, does such a "fifth column" actually exist?
 

ibnIslam

New member
Islam According to Oprah
Is Oprah Winfrey a threat to national security?

By Rod Dreher, columnist for the New York Post
October 8, 2001 11:45 a.m.

Why am I not surprised that you are posting this, drbrumley? I read this article a long time ago, and I almost laughed. However, it's not funny because this is another attempt to trick people into thinking "Islam is what Muslims do". Muslims are people like yourselves. The mistakes they make should not be held against Islam. By the way, does it make you feel proud to know that Muslims don't bother to warn each other away from Christianity on the Islamic boards? When they DO discuss Christianity, they discuss what it teaches in the BOOKS, not what Christians do. An intelligent person like yourself should do the same. Yes, ignorant people are not really learning anything about islam by watching Oprah, but neither are you learning anything really from dreher. On top of this, you want others to share your view on it.

Below are things I feel are really important to respond to, and since there are only a few Muslims who read this board let alone post, it's something I have to do.


Chief among them is the notion, repeated ad nauseam by our leaders and the media, that Islam is a religion of peace. This may not be an outright lie, but it is so far from the full truth as to approach falsehood.

Islam IS a religion of peace. It strives to reform civilizations using the most non-violent methods. It is only when other methods have failed and others continually try to extinguish it by force that force becomes necessary. The politicians of the world say 'We have to defend our way of life', and this is applauded, but when Muslims say "defending ourselves is part of our religion", we are called terrorists! I will not lie and try to hide up that Islam DOES want to remove regimes that are opposed to it. Today's politicians are not the inventors of "regime change'. However, this won't happen until an actual state that unites all Muslims under one leadership materializes. The planners of foreign policy in the 'free' West have think tanks dedicated to studying Islam and its policy, and they know very well that when this unity DOES happen, it will be very bad for their wealth and power. As for the common people, it's easy to scare them into submission. When they have the people scared, they can get any kind of support they need to ensure that this never happens. Their efforts are not for YOU, but for them, don't think otherwise. On the other hand, Islam cares about people's well-being in five things, religion, lineage, honor, blood, and wealth, and this is what the entire structure of gov't (on the pattern of how Muhammad(S) and his immediate successors, not those who CLAIM to have Islamic gov'ts) is based on.


Americans by nature want to think the best of those from other cultures.

Generalizations left and right. He likes to put all Muslims into one group, and all Americans in another, and then make generalizations about both. Does he forget that many who call themselves Americans are accepting Islam (women to men ratio in reversions is 4:1)?.

But we run the risk of blinding ourselves to the nature of the threat facing our country and our civilization. In his 1996 book The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order, Harvard's Samuel P. Huntington warned us of deluding ourselves about the true nature of the Islamic threat.

What is so "threatening" about Islam? For years, more and more are accepting Islam, and no one has been holding a sword to their necks to force them into it. People are tolerant when it comes to a lot of things, but when someone in America becomes a Muslim they are a "traitor". What does Dreher think is the threat, people accepting Islam or people making armed attacks against America? Maybe this "threat" is really just a threat to unjust rulers and the "educated" literati that they employ to scare the masses? Islam denounces any authority that isn't derived from what God revealed, and this is something that makes tyrants shake in their boots. Tyrants rule by the injustice of their desires, even when they say "we are peace-makers".


"Some Westerners, including President Bill Clinton, have argued that the West does not have problems with Islam but only with violent Islamist extremists," Huntington wrote. "Fourteen hundred years of history demonstrate otherwise."

Of course the West has a problem with Islam. Its rulers have always tried to "crusade" against it, and its people have always played along. Whoever saw the wrong in this was castigated, accused of heresy or labled a traitor. Islam only has a problem with those who work against it. Missonaries have always been sent to the Muslim lands to 'CONVERT' the heathen. Islam doesn't feel the need to convert people by trickery or force, only the one to remove unjust authorities (and not by carpet-bombing). Anything that secular rulers do, those who truly rule by Islam (what is in the Quran and the example of Muhammad(S), with nothing more and nothing less) can do it better, more humanely and more justly.

We can sit around making diversity quilts and thinking happy thoughts, or we can, with charity, commit ourselves to soberly assessing the historical and present-day reality of "peaceful" Islam, and its relations with non-Muslims.

It is "sobering" that Muslims here are not making door-to-door pillages and rapes, and yet anyone who resembles them has been targeted. Who's the real problem, power freaks or Muslims who live here? We are your well-wishers, we care about your Hereafter, and the politicians do not. They might care about your worldly life, but only as much as it helps their lust for power and wealth.

Which brings us to Oprah. Last Friday, she devoted her program to "Islam 101," purportedly a crash course in the Mohammedan faith for her vast television audience of clueless Americans. It was grossly imbalanced and extremely dishonest. In fact, given how many Christians and other non-Muslims are horrifically persecuted today by Muslims in the name of Islam, it amounted to offensive propaganda.

Ignorant people who speak out on things they don't know about only COMPOUND ignorance, Dreher included.


Take her interview with Queen Rania of Jordan, a lovely, modern young woman who looks more at home in the pages of Vogue than in a hijab.

A practicing Muslim woman who follow the example of Mary(A) would be embarrassed to have these words said about her in front of males who are not her close relatives, not proud of it.

The queen said that Islam "doesn't impose anything" on people — an absurd lie. Oprah asked her about the so-called "honor killings" of women in Jordan, murders committed by men against women in their families who are believed to have shamed the clan. For example, some young women who have been raped are in turn murdered by their male relatives for having stained the family's honor.

The "queen" is right about non-coercion in matters of the faith. Acceptance is only valid when it is done voluntarily. Imposing the authority on the land is different from forcing people to be Muslim. About the honor killings, that is neither legislated by Quran or Sunnah, and is from unharbored jealousy on the part of men. Dremer fails again. Why? Because his barely contained hatred has clouded his intellect.

Queen Rania, reflecting establishment opinion, told Oprah that honor killings were a "cultural" phenomenon.

I disagree with her "modernity", but she is right about this one. Culture is not always derived from the Quran and Sunnah (example of Muhammad(S)). Muslims reject anything that goes against these two sources.

If that's true, then why have pre-Islamic Arabic tribal customs been taken up and spread throughout the Muslim world? Moreover, many Islamic religious leaders endorse them, or lesser violent punishment of women for the same dubious offenses.
.

Dreher has just been confronted with the fact that Quran is against "honor killings" but because he badly wants to make this a part of Islam, he dismisses it. There is a lot of commonality between the ignorance of the Arabs before Islam and the ignorance of other civilizations before Islam. We know that Greco-Roman thought of the idol-worshippers before Jesus(A) is really "cultural", but why is it that so many people in the west have their philosophy/theology influenced by it? Does Dreher care that emperor Constantine accepted Christianity mostly in name only while ratifying a doctrine that was in accordance with ideas he carried over from paganism? Do people who believe in one God feel comfortable praising the misguided thought of pagan Greeks? At least make a distinction between "culture" and "revealed way of life".

Anyway, if one grants, for the sake of argument, the queen's contention that the Koran doesn't endorse honor killings, so what? Clearly very many Muslims believe honor killings are Islamic doctrine, and act on those beliefs — and we must be aware of that, and let that reality inform our judgment.

The "reality" of Islam is from the Quran and Sunnah, not what muslims insist Islam is. Non-Muslims have a RIGHT to hold Muslims accountable by the Quran and sunnah. Islam doesn't work by the desires of the majority, it works on the strength of its pure sources. The ignorance of some Muslims does not make what they do part of Islam.

If one were a Jew in Torquemada's Spain, it would be useless to be told that the Inquisition was a betrayal of Christianity. Theological disputes would be ancillary to the question of survival: what would matter would be how the local Christians interpreted their faith.

I witness in front of you all that Christianity is NOT to blame for the Inquisition. It is the evil and heartless people who did this to force conversions. Books can't do anything by themselves, and it is the people who are responsible for their actions.

Queen Rania's dismissal of Muslim behavior that brings discredit upon Islam as un-Islamic brings to mind the bankrupt apologies leftists made during the Cold War for Communism. When the wickedness of the Soviets, or other Communist forces, could not be denied, it was claimed that these people did not represent "true" Communism. They may have actually believed that, but those who would be victims of real Communists, not theoretical Communists, didn't have that luxury.

Muslims do not seek to win the stamp of approval of non-Muslims. Our religion teaches us that as long as God is happy with us, and that we fulfill our responsibilities to Him AND the rest of creation, then it doesn't matter who hates us or loves us.

Dr. Maleeha Lodhi, the Pakistani ambassador to the United States, turned up to say that "There is nothing in Islam that does not accord women equal rights." Oprah did not ask her to name one Muslim society in which women enjoy equal rights in the Western sense, because the ambassador would have had to remain silent. Or perhaps not: she had no trouble lying when she asserted that it was "absolutely untrue" that some people in her nation had taken to the streets to celebrate the September 11 attack.

Muslim societies are at the bottom of the curve now, and I'm the first to admit it. This is because of their FAILURE to implement the Quran and Sunnah, not because of their adherence to it. If Islam is so "oppressive" to women, then why is it that the vast majority of new Muslims of European descent are women? Also, I do not deny that Muslims danced when the attack happened. Quite a few of Muslims in the "third world" were exuberant because they finally saw that the "superpower" that was abusing them and causing strife in their lands was capable of feeling at least a SMALL fraction of the pain they felt and that it was not invincible. This was a natural reaction that you see from someone who has been bullied for a long time. When the bully gets a knife in the gut, one feels relieved and joyous for a moment, but after seeing the pain the bully is in, one feels mercy and pity for him after a while.

Other quotes, from the program (available at www.oprah.com):

— "Muslims do not think that there is a non-Islamic world out there that we have to conquer. That is not the concept in Islam. Our job is to get to know one another, and the more we do that the better off we are."

Yes and no. Those who REALLY want to establish the rule according to the Quran and Sunnah are not selfish people. Muhammad(S) was the undisputed ruler of the entire peninsula, privy to all its wealth. At his death, he had nothing except a few personal items such as a water pot and a mat to sleep on. So yes, it is the desire of the Muslim to see the entire earth governed by what is in the Quran and Sunnah. And NO, the Muslim does not feel the need to convert non-Muslims, because he knows that is not his responsibility. It is only his responsibility to let people know what Islam IS and explain its concepts as best as he can, and then leave other people to face thier Maker after death if they reject the message.

— "The main thing we would like non-Muslims to know about our religion is that we're not so different from them."

This is false. Mentality of one who follows the Quran and Sunnah abhors that which goes against it. "Islam began as something strange and will return again as something strange, so give glad tidings to the strangers" -- meaning of authentic statement from Muhammad(S). Those who really do hold onto Islam will be called names like 'weirdo', 'freak', 'terrorist', 'raghead', and so-on, but it won't bother them.

— "I would like to reassure the American public that Islam does not preach violence."

Incomplete. Islam uses violence as a LAST resort, and does not allow more violence than that which was perpetrated on it. This is different from secularism where violence is increasingly the FIRST resort and ALWAYS more than what is needed (napalm, atomic bombs, carpet bombing, deplete uranium, etc.)

— "Islam and Christianity and Judaism, and all the world's religions share a common heritage. We come from the same root. And our prophets and the characters in our holy books are the same. In Islam, all the religions are permitted to exist in peace with these others until Judgement Day."

Islam was practiced by Abraham(A), his sons Ishmael and Isaac, Isaac's son Jacob, and his 12 sons, peace on them all. Judaism and Christianity came afterwards. Their roots are not the same. We believe in many of the same prophets you do, with Muhammad(S) being the last in a line of prophets that taught the message of Islam (submission to God alone).

"Wherever one looks along the perimeter of Islam, Muslims have problems living peaceably with their neighbors," Harvard's Huntington wrote. "Muslims make up about one-fifth of the world's population but in the 1990s they have been far more involved in intergroup violence than the people of any other civilization. The evidence is overwhelming."

Huntington is lazy when it comes to facts. Who are the people who fought World Wars I and II, the people who bombed Japan, napalm-ed Vietnam, used depleted uranium on entire peoples, raped the Indian subcontinent and most of Asia, created mischief in the Slavic wars in the 90's, sponsored corrupt dictators who butchered millions in South America and carpet bombed Afghanistan and Iraq? All since the 1940's? One thing is common...secularists, not Muslims. Of course, I don't need to add that these secularists also helped people like Saddam and mubarak to get in power and keep them there. The problem is secularism and those who rule by it, not Islam. The average American is more likely to die of poverty than be a victim of attack. The power freaks in charge don't spend accordingly.

In Sudan, the Muslim government in Khartoum imposed Islamic law nationwide in 1993, and has killed 2 million Sudanese Christians and animists, and enslaved countless more, in an attempt to Islamize the country. Coptic Christians in Egypt, whose presence in that country predates the arrival of Islam, have been slaughtered by fundamentalist Muslims, with authorities doing little or nothing to stop them.

I know of inter-denominational violence in Sudan and Egypt. Killing merely on the basis of religion is not in the spirit of Islam.

In the Philippines and East Timor, Christians are being massacred by Muslims. Churches and Christian homes in Nigeria are being burned, and Christians murdered, by Muslim extremists. Arab Christians are oppressed by Muslims in the Holy Land, too. In Nazareth, Muslims are building a mosque just steps from the Basilica of the Annunciation, and make no secret of their intent to provoke and intimidate Christians.

Another shameless statement. What did the rulers of the WEst who are Christians do when the "nativity church" was being hit by israeli tanks? They don't have a right to moan when they don't do anything. Did they say "the birthplace of our Lord is under attack, we must do something", or "No we don't want to upset our political supporters." Please don't pretend that they hold it dear. Their wives should be ashamed of them.

An imam in Gaza earlier this year broadcast a sermon over Palestinian Authority radio calling on Muslims to murder Christians and Jews as their Islamic duty. The ancient Christian presence in many Arab lands — Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, among others — has been decimated in the last century by Muslim persecution.

Yes, it is the duty to strive against them, as I am doing against you. Are you sure Dreher didn't conveniently substitute "murder" for "strive against"? Dreher doesn't care about Christians in the Middle East, because he could care less if the Israelis kill every last Palestinian (Muslim and Christians alike). Muslims and Christinas have a close relationship, even today the Christians kept the keys to the nativity church with a muslim family that has maintained it for centuries. Every day the old man would unlock it himself and lock it at night, until he was shot by israeli soldiers.

there are two worlds: that of Islam, and that of war. No compromise is possible between them.

It is true, some issues Muslims can never compromise on. Do not think that Muslims want non-Muslims to die and go to Hell. Satan is our common enemy, and we want to help ourselves and others against him.

"The religious dimension of this conflict is central to its meaning," Sullivan writes, adding that it would be "naive to ignore in Islam a deep thread of intolerance toward unbelievers, especially if those unbelievers are believed to be a threat to the Islamic world."

Islam hates anti-Islamic ideas, and it opens bridges for people to leave them and see what islam is.

It's naive to ignore it on a macro level, and it's naive to ignore it on a micro level, too. We know that the Muslims who carried out the 9/11 attacks lived for years peacefully among other Americans. We also know that they couldn't have carried out their operations without the support of others. Further, we know that some mosques and Islamic institutions in this country have been helpful to the jihadists. Believing that the threat to America comes simply from foreign Islamic extremists may make Oprah viewers feel better, but it's dangerous — and it lets moderate, patriotic American Muslims evade their responsibility to repudiate and root out fundamentalists among them. In Sunday's New York Times, a reporter wrote of interviews she had with Muslim American students right here in my own Brooklyn neighborhood. One of the male students said, on the record, that he would abandon the United States and give his own life to back an "observant Muslim who is fighting for an Islamic cause." Oprah honey, this is called sedition, and if there is an Islamic fifth column in this country, the American public needs to know about it.

Like I said, these people want you to become so afriad that you will rat on your neighbors for being "suspiciously" Islamic. If you know a Muslim, talk to him about his religion. Is that too scary? Also, a Muslim who turns his brother in to non-Muslim hands has left Islam. The duty is on ourselves to police each other, and we don't think it's right to turn over a brother to a non-Musliim authority. Taht is why there are movements being made so that Muslims can handle their disputes internally without outside interference.

American Muslims understandably feel pressured now to show the non-Muslim majority that they are no threat, and well-meaning dolts like Oprah are key to this effort. Watching Oprah's "Islam 101" program, I thought of the Lebanese Catholics at my church, who stopped me after a prayer service for the World Trade Center dead to talk, on the record, about the anti-Arab persecution they feared coming.

If i didn't know better, I'd be scared too. But integrity and sincerity to God demands that I NOT hide what I know about Islam and to clarify misconceptions. I've had a lot MORE non-Muslims ask me about Islam after the attacks. it wasn't good press, but it made people aware of Islam and started them buzzing about it. They appreciate my frankness, and even though not all of them have accepted Islam, we are at least able to talk sincerely with each other (not by cutting and pasting).


"That's amazing," I said to them. "You are all Christians living in the United States of America, yet you are afraid to have your names attached to patriotic statements, out of fear that your Muslim neighbors, the same people you are defending to me, will attack you. What does that say about the reality of Islam in America?"

What is also amazing is that in America, "land of the free", people are still in fear for their lives simply because of ethnicity or faith.

They did not answer me, because they had no answer. Think about that next time you're told that Islam is a religion of peace. There's more to the story than what Oprah is telling you.

And a LOT more that Dreher doesn't know either. He should stick to writing fiction novels.
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by ibnIslam




Islam IS a religion of peace.

That is a horrendous lie. Allah, your false god, is really a demon who desires to kill all believers in Christ.:down:
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
Greetings IBN Islam,

Thank-you for your post. But it was full of double speak.

Why am I not surprised that you are posting this, drbrumley?

Well, it wasn't meant to surprise you.

I read this article a long time ago, and I almost laughed. However, it's not funny because this is another attempt to trick people into thinking "Islam is what Muslims do".

You know IBN, your absolutely right that this isn't funny. But it is not funny based on different reasons. By Islam's own admission, Islam means "submission to Allah." Not God, cause God of the Holy Bible and the God of Islam are totally two different beings. With that said, Islam is what Muslims do. Are they not submissive to Allah? Are Muslims not submissive to the teachings of the Qu'ran and the Hadith's? If they are not submissive to these, then I can understand the fanatics as being totally subserviant to themselves. But, this is not the case.

Muslims are people like yourselves. The mistakes they make should not be held against Islam.

I agree IF people like Bin Laden, Arafat, Hamas, and countless other Islamic groups, those who are public about thier terrorism, were not following what your good book says. Allah makes no bones about who the enemy is. It is Christians and Jews. You know it, I know it and many more who have taken the time to study Islam in a good or bad way know it. It is only American Muslims that seem to be naive enough to say Islam is a peace religion. I can understand why they say that and act as to be friends. Cause in this country, that kind of talk like the talk that comes from the Islam dominated Mideast, that retoric wouldn't fly over here.

Islam IS a religion of peace. It strives to reform civilizations using the most non-violent methods. It is only when other methods have failed and others continually try to extinguish it by force that force becomes necessary.

Sorry, your wrong here. Muhammad commanded a band of Islamic Jihadists to ambush a defenseless Meccan caravan and seize their goods. This took place in a month when all fighting was prohibited by treaty. When the Jihadists returned to Medina with their plunder, this unprovoked attack was unanimously condemned by the community. But what the people of Medina judged to be an armed robbery in broad daylight got divine approval:

Sura 2:217. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

If you accept these statements as "revelations" from Allah then you are left with an Allah who admitted that fighting in the prohibited month was a "grave offense," but turned around to defend the "grave offence" by saying that more "grave is preventing people from the sacred mosque". Two wrongs don't make a right nor does two sins make righteousness. The true God never defends sin. The promise of loot was one of the stimuli motivating Jihadists to fight can be plainly seen in the Qu'ran. Listen to this Sura:

Sura 48:20. Allah has promised you many gains that ye shall acquire, and He has given you these beforehand; and He has restrained the hands of men from you; that it may be a Sign for the Believers, and that He may guide you to a Straight Path;

That the speaker made good his promise to enrich Jihadists with plunder is proven from the lives of Muslims who migrated to Medina with Muhammad. Many who came to Medina poverty stricken left fortunes to their heirs(1). With these earthly incentives and more in paradise, Islamic Jihad escalated until it bacame an all out war of subjugation, not only of individuals, but of whole nations and empires, bringing them into Islam. The command to fight for the cause of Allah is given in many Suras of the Qu'ran:

Sura 2:244. Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things

The command to fight relentlessly is given in Sura 4:74. In Sura 8:65, Allah encouraged Muhammad to incite Muslims to fight. Listen to Allah giving the Jikad order:

Sura 9:5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. AND>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sura 9:123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.


Those who are ignorant of the Qu'ran and Islam are terrified when they see Muslims slaughtering Christians. We might feel better about it if we understood that our Muslim friends were merely carrying out an Islamic injunction. Allah specifically commands Muslims to fight against Christians and Jews until they are reduced to a condition worst than that of slaves:

Sura 9:29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

A being who is determined to wipe out Jews and Christians, now who might that be? The Bible has the answer in Revelation 12:17.

Now IBN, let me ask you this question. Supposing you have two sons and one is stubborn. Would you instruct the other to slay the stubborn son?

And just one more thing IBN about "Peaceful Islam," Islamic historians themselves confirm that Muhammad was present at twenty six armed conflicts and fought actively in nine (Risalatu Abdullah @C, 47,CF. IBN Hisham Vol.3 Page 78.)

In thriteen years of ministry, Muhammad won just over a hundred souls to Islam by peaceful persuasions. But when he took up the sword, "miracles" started to happen. People were forced to choose between Islam and violent death(2). Eight years after the Hijra (flight), Muhammad could mobilize an army of about 10,000 jihadists for his attack on Mecca. (see Ibn Athir Vol. 2 Page 93)

A year later, 30,000 jihadists attacked Tabuk. When, under Khalifah Abu Bakr, Syria was captured for Islam, the Islamic army had grown so large that the whole place was swarming with jihadists(3).

Now here is peaceful Muhammad IBN, After the Battle of the Ditch in 627 AD, Muhammad at a market square commanded the surrendered Banu Quraizah Jews to dig trenches, after which he ordered 700 male Jews of that clan to be slaughtered in the trenches they had dug(4). As their reward for helping Allah, the "spared" women, children and properties were distributed among the "faithful" Muslims.

Remember Adolf Hitler who gassed 6,000,000 Jews to death in the concentration camps? All Hitler need to do to become one of the greatest Muslims who ever lived was to confess:" la-illaha illaha Muhammad rasul la-Allah."

I will finish this Part 1 answer with this. If Muhammad said to kill Christians and Jews and the Qu'ran is the source and Muhammad is the source, why do you nice Muslims reject this?Cause history shows without a doubt what kind of sick, twisted man Muhammad really was.


(1) Read of the life of Abd Rahman, in Rauzatu's Safa Vol. 2 Page 253.

(2) Muhammad understood Jihad to mean literal warfare and even participated in those conflicts. As a result, moderate Muslims arguing against Jihad have no basis for thier belief.

(3) Katib' Waqidi, Futuhu" Sham, Vol 1, P 6, Bombey Edition, 1298 A.H.

(4)Sura 33:26; also Ibn Hisham's Siratur Rasul, Part 2, pp 75 and 148

In Christ,
Dave
 
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Curtsibling

New member
Originally posted by Freak
That is a horrendous lie. Allah, your false god, is really a demon who desires to kill all believers in Christ.:down:

"My god is bigger than your god..."

Ho-hum.

And people wonder why there is so much suffering in the world. :nono:
 

Curtsibling

New member
And about your ideas on Islam.

You speak just exactly the same way their bad element do.

EG:
"We are better, our god is the only legitimate one, they want to kill us, so we will kill them!"

Go look in the mirror, Tye (if you can) and tell me what you see.
 

Curtsibling

New member
My statement in quotes was a general statement and was made rhetorically...

It did not pertain to you, merely what I see...

Now, at the risk of being a bore;

You hurled an accusation at me firstly, calling me an athiest,
then you proceeded to paint several million people with the same brush.
Calling all muslims willing killers of christians, more or less.

At least that is what it seemed...

Now, you 'seem' to back pedal and deny it.

You should really tone down the hate-juice before you post, it will only lead to controntation...

Do you want that?
 

saladine1

New member
There is not a single leader who kept bible saves from alteration and innovations from humans. Jesus had not leave leaders behind him who has the knowledge of bible and agree with each every thing existing in this Holy Scripture. Whatever we want to explain is that we have different bibles with different contents and index.
Bible must indicate Islam as a next coming religion. Islam is most growing and second biggest religion on the earth today. There are many verses about prophet and his family in both testaments, but because of wrong setting and changes in Gods words, a normal reader of Bible cannot understand the meanings of these verses in the real.

But if some one tries to search the light, he could find it. There are only some of the proofs from bible, obvious to every reader.
Torah promise the coming of the Prophet Muhammad, up [on him be peace and blessings]:
The Lord said to me [Moses]: ‘what they say is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you among their brothers; I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the Prophet speaks in My Name, I will myself call him to account.’ (Deuteronomy, 18.17-9)

Definition /
It is clear from these verses that what is meant by ‘a Prophet like you among their brothers’ is a Prophet who will come from the line of Ishmael, since Ishmael is the brother of Isaac, who is the forefather of Moses’ people, the Children of Israel. The only Prophet who came from the line of Ishmael after Moses and resembled him in many ways, for example, in the bringing of a new law and waging of war on his enemies, is the Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings.

The sentence, I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him, in the verse in question, means that the promised Prophet will be unlettered and speak whatever is revealed to him. God reiterates the same fact in the Quran:
He does not speak out of [his own] desire. It is but a Revelation revealed. (Al-Quran: al-Najm, 53.3-4)
The sentence I will raise up of them a prophet like you means that he will also have a brother, a successor or a forth comer. Moses had a brother who was his successor and forth comer. His name is Harun.
The Prophetic tradition: O Ali! You hold in relation to me the same position, as Harun held in relation to Moses except that there will be no prophet after me.

The first witness of Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him and family was Imam (leader) Ali at age of nine years. And he was his successor too.

"For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla)."

Now we can take a look at chapter john:
John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"

John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceeded from the Father, he shall testify of me"

John 14:26 "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

John 16:7-14 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you."

These verses are saying the same thing again that the prophet who will come shall not speak for him self. Jesus also said that he would come after me.

Not only Jesus talked about Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him and family but all other prophet told their nations too. With the passage of time and in the presence of devine people majority of people forgot the main massage. But you can still find some signs of this massage in today bible too.

John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah and if he was "that prophet" (a prophet like Elijah). He answered "No," to both questions: Are you Elijah? And he said, I am not. Are you that prophet? And he answered, No (John 1:21).
I will send you Eli Jah [LORD God], the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD (Mal 5:4).
It is clear that Jews were not only waiting for Jesus but also a man called Elijah and a prophet who was like him. Both of them were important for them and they had heard about them from old Prophets of God.
In Christianity Jesus is not a Prophet and no on is like him too. So it must be someone after Jesus. Because these two personalities were most important for God messengers. And both were like each other but one was prophet and the other wasn’t a prophet. We do not know name of prophet in the verse but name of his witness is Elijah. Elijah is actually name of Ali who is leader of Muslims after last prophet (peace be up on him and family). And this Elijah and Prophet should come before last day. It means the prophet should be last prophet, and he will come with final testament.
But not only signs of Prophet Mohamed are in Bible but his name too.
Muhammad was predicted to come in the Gospel of John:

Just a quick note, the Arabic word "Ahmed" is an expression that means "The most praised." Prophet Muhammad was the first in the Middle East to be named "Muhammad (the glorified one)" and "Ahmed (his actual name which means the most praised)" right after birth. Below, you will see how Jesus in today's Gospel of John had called this human Prophet which he predicted his coming "The most praised".

Jesus in the Greek Bible used the Greek word "Periklytos" which means the admirable or glorified one. He called that predicted human prophet "Periklytos". This word corresponds exactly to the Arabic word "Ahmed" which also means the "most praised." In other words, "Periklytos" is "Ahmed" in Greek.

Bible not only talk about last Prophet (peace be up on him and family) but also about his 12 leaders from his family too, who guided and saved last book of God after him, and did not let humans make changes in last testament of God. All of these testaments are from prophet’s offspring, and prophet Mohamed (pbuh&f). Prophet Mohamed (PBUH&F) told about 12 leaders after which have not only supports form quran but bible too.

The Holy Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him and family) had said

"After me there are Twelve Caliphs.
And they are all from Quraysh."
In a tradition upon whose authenticity all Muslims agree, the Holy Prophet has said:

"Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been Exhausted and only one day is left before Doomsday (Day of judgment) Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate, The kingdom of a person out of my Ahlul-Bayt (household of prophet) who will be called by my Name. He will then fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny before then."

Sunni Reference: Sahih Tirmidhi, V2, P86, V9, P74-75 (There are many more.)

Now we shall look at what Bible told about these 12 leaders: "Sarah, thy wife, shall bear thee a son and thou shall call him Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for) an everlasting covenant for his seed after him. And as for Ishmael I have heard thee: behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly, twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation." (Genesis 18: 19-20)
The greatest tragedies happened in karbala and Syria after the death of prophet (PBUH&F). Quran talked about it many time but we shall look what bible say about this tragedy that happened after centuries since the time of Jesus.

Hussein’s Martyrdom was prophesised in the Old Testament

"For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiated and make drunk with their blood for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the North country by the river Euphrates." Jer, 46:10 (The Old Testament)

Grandson of Prophet (peace be up on him and family) was killed in front of his small children, family and companions near the river Euphrates....TO BE CONTINUED
 

Quasar1011

New member
Originally posted by saladine1
Now we can take a look at chapter john:
John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"

John 14:26 "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

The Comforter is the Holy Ghost. Who are you saying it is? Whoever it is, abides forever.

Originally posted by saladine1
Now we can take a look at chapter john:

John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceeded from the Father, he shall testify of me"

The Comforter testifies of Jesus. Are you saying the Spirit of truth will testify of someone else?

Originally posted by saladine1
In Christianity Jesus is not a Prophet...

Jesus spoke of Himself as a prophet in Luke 4:24. Others spoke of Jesus as a prophet as well:

Luke 7:15-16, "The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother. They were all filled with awe, and praised God. 'A great prophet has appeared among us', they said. 'God has come to help His people'."

Luke 24:19, "About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied, "He was a prophet powerful in word and deed before God and all the people."
 
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servent101

New member
drbrumley
Allah specifically commands Muslims to fight against Christians and Jews until they are reduced to a condition worst than that of slaves:

Where? - if you actually looked in the Library - you would find that Islam does recognize the Christian religion, and if you studied their language - the concept to kill is not literal - it means to kill someone's ignorance - to enlighten them. All in all what you think you are reading is simply not so... sorry but there is nothing true about what you believe about Islam - you simply are another hate monger looking for someone to hate - but yes there are quacks on both sides - your one of them - a quack trying to insite hatred towards the Islamic community - and you are the one who is more likely to hurt someone.

There are those, though, who do believe as you think they believe, and for the most part the core group of them were trained by Americans to fight in Afganistan against the Russians - they are not of the Islam sect - they were trained by Americans to fight and kill the Russians - they were not trained by Islam.

With Christ's Love

Servent101
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
It seems to me that Islam has, by and large, been hijacked by the nutcases. I have no doubt that many if not most Muslims are quite pacific and have good hearts. But it's the wackos who always get the press.
 

Mr. 5020

New member
Granite said:
It seems to me that Islam has, by and large, been hijacked by the nutcases. I have no doubt that many if not most Muslims are quite pacific and have good hearts. But it's the wackos who always get the press.
Like someone here said (perhaps Turbo, or Knight...I don't 'member), "Not all Muslims are terrorists, but it seems like all terrorists are indeed Muslims."
 

Zimfan

New member
Mr. 5020 said:
Like someone here said (perhaps Turbo, or Knight...I don't 'member), "Not all Muslims are terrorists, but it seems like all terrorists are indeed Muslims."

Well, except for the IRA, CIRA, RHD, Maoist insurgency in Nepal, FPMR in Chile, ELN in Colombia, LVF, Orange Volunteers (OV), FARC, AUC-Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia, the Zviadists, the Revolutionary Nuclei, ELA, Morzanist Patriotic Front, Kach and Kahane Chai, Aum Shinrikyo, Chukaku-Ha, Anti-Imperialist International Brigade (AIIB), Sendero Luminoso (Shining Path), Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA), Alex Boncayao Brigade (ABB), Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA), Grupo de Resistencia Anti-Fascista Premero de Octubre, as well as many others.
 
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