Isaiah 7 has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever

[Elia]

Bs"d

1: In the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, son of Uzzi'ah, king of Judah, Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remali'ah the king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to wage war against it, but they could not conquer it. 2: When the house of David was told, "Syria is in league with E'phraim," his heart and the heart of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake before the wind. 3: And Y-H-W-H said to Isaiah, "Go forth to meet Ahaz, you and She'ar-jash'ub your son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Fuller's Field, 4: and say to him, `Take heed, be quiet, do not fear, and do not let your heart be faint because of these two smoldering stumps of firebrands, at the fierce anger of Rezin and Syria and the son of Remali'ah. 5: Because Syria, with E'phraim and the son of Remali'ah, has devised evil against you, saying, 6: "Let us go up against Judah and terrify it, and let us conquer it for ourselves, and set up the son of Ta'be-el as king in the midst of it," 7: thus says the Lord Y-H-W-H: It shall not stand, and it shall not come to pass.
8: For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin. (Within sixty-five years E'phraim will be broken to pieces so that it will no longer be a people.) 9: And the head of E'phraim is Sama'ria, and the head of Sama'ria is the son of Remali'ah. If you will not believe, surely you shall not be established.'" 10: Again Y-H-W-H spoke to Ahaz,
11: "Ask a sign of Y-H-W-H your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven." 12: But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not put Y-H-W-H to the test." 13: And he said, "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? 14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

We see here in Isaiah 7, that king Achaz, the king of Judah, is afraid of two neighboring kings.
It is important to know that after the death of king Solomo the kingdom of Israel split up into two parts; into the kingdom of Judah, and the kingdom of Israel.
The kingdom om Judah was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and a part of the Levites. The kingdom of Israel was made up of the other ten tribes.
Achaz was king over Judah, and in this prophecy the king of Israel is Pekah, the son of Remaliah.
And Pekah had made a covenant with the king of Syria, called Resin, to attack together the kingdom of Judah.
This news caused king Achaz considerable stress, because he had a dark suspicion that things could very well turn out not so very rosy for him.
Therefore God sent Isaiah to Achaz, in order to tell him that things would work out just fine for him. God tells Achaz that he will give him a sign. Here is the sign: "14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman is pregnant and is giving birth to a son, and she called his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

God says that before the child of the young woman who is pregnant will grow up, the land of the two kings, Resin of Syria, and Pekah of Israel, will be deserted, that is devoid of people. Those two nations will be led into exile.
So this is a sign for king Achaz, who lived about 700 years before JC.

And the Bible tells us that this prophecy came true: "27: In the fifty-second year of Azari'ah king of Judah Pekah the son of Remali'ah began to reign over Israel in Sama'ria, and reigned twenty years. 28: And he did what was evil in the sight of the LORD; he did not depart from the sins of Jerobo'am the son of Nebat, which he made Israel to sin. 29: In the days of Pekah king of Israel Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria came and captured I'jon, A'bel-beth-ma'acah, Jan-o'ah, Kedesh, Hazor, Gilead, and Galilee, all the land of Naph'tali; and he carried the people captive to Assyria. 30: Then Hoshe'a the son of Elah made a conspiracy against Pekah the son of Remali'ah, and struck him down, and slew him, and reigned in his stead, in the twentieth year of Jotham the son of Uzzi'ah."
II Kings 15.

We see here that the population of Israel indeed went into exile, and that the land of king Pekah was deserted.

And here is what happened to Resin, the king of Syria:
"6: At that time the king of Edom recovered Elath for Edom, and drove the men of Judah from Elath; and the E'domites came to Elath, where they dwell to this day. 7: So Ahaz sent messengers to Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria, saying, "I am your servant and your son. Come up, and rescue me from the hand of the king of Syria and from the hand of the king of Israel, who are attacking me." 8: Ahaz also took the silver and gold that was found in the house of the LORD and in the treasures of the king's house, and sent a present to the king of Assyria. 9: And the king of Assyria hearkened to him; the king of Assyria marched up against Damascus, and took it, carrying its people captive to Kir, and he killed Rezin."
II Kings 16.

So here we see that also the inhabitants of the land of King Resin went into exile, and also his land was deserted, in the days of Achaz.

So God gave a sign to Achaz.

In the days of Achaz.

About 700 years before JC.

So this prophecy has no bearing what so ever on the messiah, and NOWHERE in this prophecy is spoken about a virgin.

These are only misconceptions of the NT.

However, the NT brings this prophecy to Achaz as a messianic prophecy, see Matthew 1 "21: she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." 22: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel".

So what the NT does here, is taking a text which does not speak about the messiah, ripping it out of context, mistranslating it, (is says "young woman", and not "virgin") and then presenting it to us as a messianic prophecy.

So one of the foundations of the Christian religion, the virgin birth, is based upon a mistranslated text which is ripped out of context and does NOT speak about the messiah.

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

 

[beameup]

Hear rabbi Tovia Singer lie about the "exclusive" use of bethula to be the only Hebrew word for virgin.

 

[chair]

Hear rabbi Tovia Singer lie about the "exclusive" use of bethula to be the only Hebrew word for virgin.

Well, it is the only word for virgin. You may not like it, but it is the case.

 

[beameup]

Well, it is the only word for virgin. You may not like it, but it is the case.

Nope. Wrong. When Genesis was written, bethulah needed "specifying" to convey "virginity":

And the damsel [Rebekah] was very fair to look upon, a virgin [bĕthuwlah] , neither had any man known her:
and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up. Genesis 24:16

The "rabbi" Singer is a disingenuous deceiver from "Jews-4-Judaism" (a desperate bunch of apologists).

 

[chair]

Nope. Wrong. When Genesis was written, bethulah needed "specifying" to convey "virginity":

And the damsel [Rebekah] was very fair to look upon, a virgin [bĕthuwlah] , neither had any man known her:
and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up. Genesis 24:16

The "rabbi" Singer is a disingenuous deceiver from "Jews-4-Judaism" (a desperate bunch of apologists).

If you are right, then all you have done is shown that there is no word in Hebrew for virgin. However, you are wrong. The Bible often repeats phrases in different ways.

By the way- you never answered me: Why do you hate Jews so much? What have we done to you?

 

[beameup]

If you are right, then all you have done is shown that there is no word in Hebrew for virgin. However, you are wrong. The Bible often repeats phrases in different ways.

All three words for very young woman (maiden) are used in relationship to Rebekah in Genesis 24.
God doesn't make "mistakes" and errors in his infallible Torah/Tanakh, as most Jews suggest.
almah
bethulah
na'arah

I posted the Youtube link showing the chicanery of "rabbi" Singer of J4J.

 

[chair]

All three words for very young woman (maiden) are used in relationship to Rebekah in Genesis 24.
God doesn't make "mistakes" and errors in his infallible Torah/Tanakh, as most Jews suggest.
almah
bethulah
na'arah

You are making no sense. Three descriptive words are used to describe Rebekah. Does that mean the words mean exactly the same thing?

 

[beameup]

You are making no sense. Three descriptive words are used to describe Rebekah. Does that mean the words mean exactly the same thing?

It means that Jews-4-Judaism are duplicitous liars and deceivers to "gullible" Jews that are careless in their fact-checking and/or know nothing of Hebrew.

From the Greek Septuagint: Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel. --Brenton English translation 1851

 

[chair]

It means that Jews-4-Judaism are duplicitous liars and deceivers to "gullible" Jews that are careless in their fact-checking and/or know nothing of Hebrew. Obviously the originator of this post falls into the "gullible" category.

No. .So far what you have shown is that you are convinced that you are right, but are incapable of making a logical case for your beliefs, so you strike out at anybody who challenges you.

Are you a "Messianic Jew"? That might explain why you are so worked up over this.

If you can calm down a tad. I can explain the Jewish view (or views) of these things. And why it doesn't have to concern you.

 

[beameup]

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel. --Isaiah 7:14 Brenton English translation of the Greek Septuagint 1851

 

[chair]

What is the topic of Isaiah 7? What is the chapter about? When will the events take place?

Read it before answering.

 

[beameup]

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel", which being interpreted is, God with us. - Matthew 1:23

Isaiah 7:14 was always considered a "Messianic Prophecy" by rabbis prior to the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. and the subsequent abandonment of Mosaic Judaism. It follows the typical pattern of a small portion of scripture "standing out" within a passage of scripture.

 

[Elia]

All three words for very young woman (maiden) are used in relationship to Rebekah in Genesis 24.
God doesn't make "mistakes" and errors in his infallible Torah/Tanakh, as most Jews suggest.
almah
bethulah
na'arah

Bs"d

"Almah" means "young woman". עלמה

"Betulah" means "virgin". בתולה

"Na'arah" means girl in puberty. נערה

The Hebrews words I gave so that everybody can copy and paste them into an online translator, and see for themselves what it means.

Here are a few translators:

https://translate.google.com/

http://dictionary.babylon-software.com/hebrew/english/

http://www.doitinhebrew.com/Translate/default.aspx?kb=IL+Hebrew+Phonetic

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

 

[Elia]

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel", which being interpreted is, God with us. - Matthew 1:23

Isaiah 7:14 was always considered a "Messianic Prophecy" by rabbis prior to the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. and the subsequent abandonment of Mosaic Judaism. It follows the typical pattern of a small portion of scripture "standing out" within a passage of scripture.

Bs"d

Isaiah 7:14 is not, was not, an will not be a messianic prophecy.

It speaks about God giving a sign to king Achaz, about 700 years before JC.

Everybody with two working braincells can see that obvious fact for himself. Just read Isaiah 7.

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

 

[Elia]

It means that Jews-4-Judaism are duplicitous liars and deceivers to "gullible" Jews that are careless in their fact-checking and/or know nothing of Hebrew.

From the Greek Septuagint: Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel. --Brenton English translation 1851

Bs"d

The Septuagint, (LXX) is corrupted by the RC church, something they freely admit:

Here are a few excerpts from the online Catholic Encyclopedia, here to be found:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/ from the entry "Septuagint" which show the reliability of the LXX:

The Christians had recourse to it constantly in their controversies with the Jews, who soon recognized its imperfections, and finally rejected it in favour of the Hebrew text or of more literal translations (Aquila, Theodotion).

On account of its diffusion alone the hellenizing Jews and early Christians, copies of the Septuagint were multiplied; and as might be expected, many changes, deliberate as well as involuntary, crept in.

The Septuagint Version, while giving exactly as to the form and substance the true sense of the Sacred Books, differs nevertheless considerably from our present Hebrew text.

Again, we must not think that we have at present the Greek text exactly as it was written by the translators; the frequent transcriptions during the early centuries, as well as the corrections and editions of Origen, Lucian, and Hesychius impaired the purity of the text: voluntarily or involuntarily the copyists allowed many textual corruptions, transpositions, additions, and omissions to creep into the primitive text of the Septuagint.

So the Catholics openly admit they corrupted the LXX.

Apart from that, of the seven times that the word "almah" appears in the Tanach, the LXX translates is four times as "young woman", one time as "youth", and only two times as "virgin", one of those two times being Isaiah 7:14.

So the translators of the LXX knew very well what "almah" means; "young woman". So why does it state in Isaiah 7:14 "virgin"? Most likely Christian corruption.

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

 

[Elia]

It means that Jews-4-Judaism are duplicitous liars and deceivers to "gullible" Jews that are careless in their fact-checking and/or know nothing of Hebrew.

Bs"d

Know nothing of Hebrew? That would be you.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

 

[beameup]

The 70 Jewish scribes that translated the Tanakh into Greek in the 3rd century BCE, translated Hebrew 'almah, used in Isa 7:14, into Koine Greek parthenos.
*In the Greek Septuagint parthenos in Koine Greek is very specific and can ONLY mean virgin (either male or female virginity).

You cannot "fool" the ruach 'Elohim, as Jews4Judaizers try to do.

etymology: the origin of a word and the historical development of its meaning. How a word changes meaning over time.

 

[Elia]

The 70 Jewish scribes that translated the Torah into Greek in the 3rd century BCE, translated Hebrew bethulah into Koine Greek parthenos.
Everything now being posted is the MODERN definition of the word and has absolutely no bearing on the ORIGINAL meaning of the word bethulah.
*In the Greek Septuagint parthenos in Koine Greek is very specific and can ONLY mean virgin (either male or female virginity).

Bs"d

You seem to think that, because the LXX now says "virgin" in Isaiah 7:14, there always was written there "virgin".

I explained before that the LXX is corrupted by the RC church. I explained before that the LXX translates the word "almah" with "young woman".

You seemed to have missed that. No problem, I'll repeat this for you:


The Septuagint, (LXX) is corrupted by the RC church, something they freely admit:

Here are a few excerpts from the online Catholic Encyclopedia, here to be found:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/ from the entry "Septuagint" which show the reliability of the LXX:

The Christians had recourse to it constantly in their controversies with the Jews, who soon recognized its imperfections, and finally rejected it in favour of the Hebrew text or of more literal translations (Aquila, Theodotion).

On account of its diffusion alone the hellenizing Jews and early Christians, copies of the Septuagint were multiplied; and as might be expected, many changes, deliberate as well as involuntary, crept in.

The Septuagint Version, while giving exactly as to the form and substance the true sense of the Sacred Books, differs nevertheless considerably from our present Hebrew text.

Again, we must not think that we have at present the Greek text exactly as it was written by the translators; the frequent transcriptions during the early centuries, as well as the corrections and editions of Origen, Lucian, and Hesychius impaired the purity of the text: voluntarily or involuntarily the copyists allowed many textual corruptions, transpositions, additions, and omissions to creep into the primitive text of the Septuagint.

So the Catholics openly admit they corrupted the LXX.

Apart from that, of the seven times that the word "almah" appears in the Tanach, the LXX translates is four times as "young woman", one time as "youth", and only two times as "virgin", one of those two times being Isaiah 7:14.

So the translators of the LXX knew very well what "almah" means; "young woman". So why does it state in Isaiah 7:14 "virgin"? Most likely Christian corruption.

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

 

[beameup]

Bs"d

You seem to think that, because the LXX now says "virgin" in Isaiah 7:14, there always was written there "virgin".

I explained before that the LXX is corrupted by the RC church. I explained before that the LXX translates the word "almah" with "young woman".

Oh yes, yet another :mock: "old-wives-tale" brought to you by the corrupt Talmudic "rabbis".
The ruach 'Elohim departed from Judaism in 70 A.D.[ichabod], and so your "rabbis" are totally blind to the Tanakh.
"You explained" :rotfl:

etymology: the origin of a word and the historical development (changes) of its meaning.

 

[Elia]

The 70 Jewish scribes that translated the Tanakh into Greek in the 3rd century BCE, translated Hebrew 'almah, used in Isa 7:14, into Koine Greek parthenos.
*In the Greek Septuagint parthenos in Koine Greek is very specific and can ONLY mean virgin (either male or female virginity).

You cannot "fool" the ruach 'Elohim, as Jews4Judaizers try to do.

Bs"d

But is very simple to "fool" people like "Beameup", who don't know what they are talking about.

The word translated in Isaiah 7:14 with "virgin" is "almah". That word appear 7 times in the Tanach, and the LXX translates that correctly as "young woman":

Of the seven times that the word "almah" appears in the Tanach, the LXX translates is four times as "young woman", one time as "youth", and only two times as "virgin", one of those two times being Isaiah 7:14.

So the translators of the LXX knew very well what "almah" means; "young woman". So why does it state in Isaiah 7:14 "virgin"?

Most likely Christian corruption.


"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19