Is sinning a necessary condition

Gary K

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What does scripture say?


Job 1: 6 ¶Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.*n5*n6
7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?*n7



Perfect is translated from:

[*StrongsHebrew*]
3477
ישׁר
yâshâr yaw-shawr'
From H3474; straight (literally or figuratively): - {convenient} {equity} {Jasher} {just} meet ({-est}) + pleased well right ({-eous}) {straight} (most) upright ({-ly} -ness).


Straight is translated from:

[*StrongsHebrew*]
8535
תּם
tâm tawm
From H8552; complete; usually (morally) pious; specifically {gentle} dear: - coupled {together} {perfect} {plain} {undefiled} upright.

Paul uses a Greek word in Ephesians 4.

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


[*StrongsGreek*]
05046
τέλειος téleios, tel'-i-os
from 5056;
complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588)

Revelation 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.



[*StrongsGreek*]
05083
THRE/W τηρέω tēréō tay-reh'-o from τερός terós, (a watch; perhaps akin to 2334);
to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from 5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from 2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), i.e. to note (a prophecy; figuratively, to fulfil a command); by implication, to detain (in custody; figuratively, to maintain); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried):--hold fast, keep(- er), (pre-, re-)serve, watch.

[*StrongsGreek*]
03141
μαρτυρία martyría, mar-too-ree'-ah
from 3144;
evidence given (judicially or genitive case):--record, report, testimony, witness.

Oaul uses a very similar word in 2Corinthians 1: 6.


1Corinthians 1: 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:



It is translated from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
03142
μαρτύριον martýrion, mar-too'-ree-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of 3144;
something evidential, i.e. (genitive case) evidence given or (specially), the Decalogue (in the sacred Tabernacle):--to be testified, testimony, witness.

Moses tells us what the testimony is.


16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.



Testimony is translated from:

[*StrongsHebrew*]
5715
עדוּת
‛êdûth ay-dooth'
Feminine of H5707; testimony: - {testimony} witness.

So is sinning necessary? Not according to scripture. Job was perfect according to God, and scripture tells us there will be a people who will no longer sin at the time of the end.
 

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So is sinning necessary? Not according to scripture. Job was perfect according to God, and scripture tells us there will be a people who will no longer sin at the time of the end.
Are you trying to claim that there was a sinless man besides Jesus?

What does "is sinning necessary" even mean?

Rom 3:10 (AKJV/PCE)​
(3:10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:​
Ps 14:3 (AKJV/PCE)​
(14:3) They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.​
When the Bible calls a man "righteous", it is in comparison with other men and not with God.
 

Gary K

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Are you trying to claim that there was a sinless man besides Jesus?

What does "is sinning necessary" even mean?

Rom 3:10 (AKJV/PCE)​
(3:10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:​
Ps 14:3 (AKJV/PCE)​
(14:3) They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.​
When the Bible calls a man "righteous", it is in comparison with other men and not with God.
What does scripture say? It says there will be people at the end of time who keep God's commandments, and God declared Job a perfect and upright man, Plus Paul said that we can become perfect. You're not arguing with me you're arguing with very clear scripture.

This is what I was talking about when I first came back and said our points of view are so far apart you guys can't understand my positions,
 

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What does scripture say?
I quoted scripture. What does it say?
It says there will be people at the end of time who keep God's commandments,
No argument there. Israel will keep His statutes due to the Spirit.

Ezek 36:25-28 (AKJV/PCE)​
(36:25) ¶ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. (36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (36:27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. (36:28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.​
and God declared Job a perfect and upright man,
Does this mean that Job was sinless?
Plus Paul said that we can become perfect.
Does this mean that we are sinless today?
You're not arguing with me you're arguing with very clear scripture.
No, I agree with scripture. I'm trying to understand what you think that you mean.
This is what I was talking about when I first came back and said our points of view are so far apart you guys can't understand my positions,
Is it possible that you are wrong?

Please address the things that I post instead of just ignoring them. Then we can actually have a discussion/debate.
 

Gary K

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I quoted scripture. What does it say?

No argument there. Israel will keep His statutes due to the Spirit.

Ezek 36:25-28 (AKJV/PCE)​
(36:25) ¶ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. (36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (36:27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. (36:28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.​

Does this mean that Job was sinless?

Does this mean that we are sinless today?

No, I agree with scripture. I'm trying to understand what you think that you mean.

Is it possible that you are wrong?

Please address the things that I post instead of just ignoring them. Then we can actually have a discussion/debate.
Ezekiel 36: 25-27 is my favorite promise. Upi left out the part where God say He will cleanse them of all their filthiness and all their idols.

Of course Job was a sinner at some point in his life. Like Paul says all have sinned and come short. But at the time God told the devil he could go after him he was perfect and upright. The same with the end time Christians. At that time they are capable of keeping the commandments but that doesn't mean they always were.

If you had paid attention to what my question was in both the title and at the end of my post you would have known what I was speaking to.
 

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Ezekiel 36: 25-27 is my favorite promise. Upi left out the part where God say He will cleanse them of all their filthiness and all their idols.
Ezekiel is speaking to Israel. This is what precedes Ezekiel 36:25

Ezek 36:21-24 (AKJV/PCE)
(36:21) ¶ But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. (36:22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. (36:23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. (36:24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

THEN God will sprinkle clean water on THEM and give THEM a new spirit.
Of course Job was a sinner at some point in his life.
OK, so what was your point about him?
Like Paul says all have sinned and come short.
Yes, he's quoting scripture.
But at the time God told the devil he could go after him he was perfect and upright. The same with the end time Christians. At that time they are capable of keeping the commandments but that doesn't mean they always were.
Make your case from scripture. What "end time Christians"? What "commandments"?
If you had paid attention to what my question was in both the title and at the end of my post you would have known what I was speaking to.
Again, you have yet to define your statement "is sinning necessary". What do you mean by that? It's not that I should read your mind, but that you need to be clear.
 

Gary K

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Ezekiel is speaking to Israel. This is what precedes Ezekiel 36:25

Ezek 36:21-24 (AKJV/PCE)
(36:21) ¶ But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. (36:22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. (36:23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. (36:24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

THEN God will sprinkle clean water on THEM and give THEM a new spirit.

OK, so what was your point about him?

Yes, he's quoting scripture.

Make your case from scripture. What "end time Christians"? What "commandments"?

Again, you have yet to define your statement "is sinning necessary". What do you mean by that? It's not that I should read your mind, but that you need to be clear.
So? You know I don't agree with your dispensationalism. I see all the OT promises as applying to Christians too.

Job 1: 22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.



Job 42: 7 ¶And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.


That at the time God spoke about him he was perfected as our lives are a process of growth towards perfection through the power of God.

Paul also said the following.


1Corinthians 2: 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:


1Corinthians 6: 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
1 Corinthians 7: 1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


Where did the promises come from? The OT of course.

OK. I'll change my question. Is the power of God great enough to overcome the sin in our lives or is the devil more powerful than God?

The 10 commandmemts
 
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Gary K

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Let's look at what Paul has to say about perfection.

I copied this from a post of mine on another forum so don't go ballistic.

1Corinthians 2: 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Corinthians 7: 1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
1Corinthians 12: 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Corinthians 15: 7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.
2Corinthians 13: 11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Galatians 3: 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Ephesians 4: 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

I think this is enough to demonstrate the truth. Paul believed in the possibility of moral perfection through the power of God. IOWs he fully believed we are capable of keeping the commandments of God.
 

Bradley D

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"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). Knowing the Word helps me when a sinful thought comes to the mind. I know the a sinful thought by having the Word of God and the Help of the Holy Spirit. It is still up to me to push aside the sinful thought. Still may say or do something wrong. Then I need to turn to prayer for forgiveness. "Forgive me my tresspasses."
 

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"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). Knowing the Word helps me when a sinful thought comes to the mind. I know the a sinful thought by having the Word of God and the Help of the Holy Spirit. It is still up to me to push aside the sinful thought. Still may say or do something wrong. Then I need to turn to prayer for forgiveness. "Forgive me my tresspasses."
Bradley D. you need to get saved!

You will not be forgiven because you pray about failures!

You are forgiven when you trust what Christ did for you, dying for your sins!

Col 2:8-15 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (2:10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (2:11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (2:12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (2:15) [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
 
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Gary K

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Bradley D. you need to get saved!

You will not be forgiven because you pray about failures!

You are forgiven when you trust what Christ did for you, dying for your sins!

Col 2:8-15 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (2:10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (2:11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (2:12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (2:15) [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
So you don't even believe you need to ask for forgiveness when you sin?
 

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So you don't even believe you need to ask for forgiveness when you sin?

When one places his trust in Christ, he is forgiven of ALL sins.

There's no need to repeatedly ask for forgiveness for sins that have already been forgiven.
 

Gary K

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When one places his trust in Christ, he is forgiven of ALL sins.

There's no need to repeatedly ask for forgiveness for sins that have already been forgiven.
I'll go with what Jesus said.

Matthew 6: 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.



Luke 7: 40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

 

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Jesus called Paul. Paul received the NEWEST information from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor 4:15-16 (AKJV/PCE)​
(4:15) For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. (4:16) Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1Cor 11:1 (AKJV/PCE)​
(11:1) Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.
2Cor 5:16 (AKJV/PCE)​
(5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.
 

JudgeRightly

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I'll go with what Jesus said.

How about looking at what Paul said, instead:

For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:19-23 NKJV

If you are a Christian, does that not mean you are holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight?

Or do you think that what Christ has cleansed, you can make dirty again?


Matthew 6: 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions,


Stopping you here.

"Vain repititions."

Repeatedly asking for forgiveness when you've already been forgiven is by definition, "vain repititions."


as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


The rest of the passage has nothing to do with this topic.


Luke 7: 40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.


Did you just do a word search for "forgiveness" and decided to see what sticks?

That's called prooftexting. It's a TERRIBLE way to do theology.

This passage is about forgiving someone, not about asking for forgiveness.
 

Gary K

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How about looking at what Paul said, instead:

For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:19-23 NKJV

If you are a Christian, does that not mean you are holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight?

Or do you think that what Christ has cleansed, you can make dirty again?



Stopping you here.

"Vain repititions."

Repeatedly asking for forgiveness when you've already been forgiven is by definition, "vain repititions."



The rest of the passage has nothing to do with this topic.



Did you just do a word search for "forgiveness" and decided to see what sticks?

That's called prooftexting. It's a TERRIBLE way to do theology.

This passage is about forgiving someone, not about asking for forgiveness.
I quoted that second passage because it ties our forgiveness to forgiving others.

Matthew 7: 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.


Vain repetitions are what pagans and Catholic monks do with their chants. They are just meaningless repetitions said over and over again similar to a rosary bead prayers.
 

JudgeRightly

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I quoted that second passage because it ties our forgiveness to forgiving others.

What does that have to do with anything?

We're talking about being forgiven for our sins. Or at least, we were. Are you now changing the subject?


Matthew 7: 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.


Guess who Jesus is telling to judge in that passage.

Hypocrites.

Don't judge if you don't want to be held to the same standard that you judge.

In other words, DON'T JUDGE LIKE A HYPOCRITE.

Judge with righteous judgement.

Vain repetitions are what pagans and Catholic monks do with their chants. They are just meaningless repetitions said over and over again similar to a rosary bead prayers.

It's also what people who haven't been taught the Bible properly, or who teach the Bible improperly, promote when they tell Christians they must ask for forgiveness every time they sin, instead of teaching that they have been forgiven for all their sins by Jesus dying ONCE and FOR ALL.

How would you like to be asked hundreds of times by someone whom you've already forgiven?

God sure wouldn't. He'd probably find that annoying.

He'd probably say, "Hey, why are you still asking for forgiveness for something I've already forgiven you for?"
 

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@JudgeRightly They do not understand what it means to be "dead with Christ".

Rom 6:3-11 (AKJV/PCE)​
(6:3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (6:4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (6:5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: (6:6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (6:7) For he that is dead is freed from sin. (6:8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: (6:9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. (6:10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (6:11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.​
P.S. There is NO WATER anywhere in that passage!
 

Gary K

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What does that have to do with anything?

We're talking about being forgiven for our sins. Or at least, we were. Are you now changing the subject?



Guess who Jesus is telling to judge in that passage.

Hypocrites.

Don't judge if you don't want to be held to the same standard that you judge.

In other words, DON'T JUDGE LIKE A HYPOCRITE.

Judge with righteous judgement.



It's also what people who haven't been taught the Bible properly, or who teach the Bible improperly, promote when they tell Christians they must ask for forgiveness every time they sin, instead of teaching that they have been forgiven for all their sins by Jesus dying ONCE and FOR ALL.

How would you like to be asked hundreds of times by someone whom you've already forgiven?

God sure wouldn't. He'd probably find that annoying.

He'd probably say, "Hey, why are you still asking for forgiveness for something I've already forgiven you for?"
Jesus is not like that.

You didn't like the first two verses I have you on forgiving others? Here's another.

Matthew 7: 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.



And here is one from Paul as I know you think what Jesus said doesn't apply to you.

Colossuans 1: 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

 

JudgeRightly

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Jesus is not like that.

Yes, He is.

You didn't like the first two verses I have you on forgiving others?

Where did I say that?

Here's another.

Matthew 7: 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.


You literally just quoted that one. Do I have to respond to it again? Was my first response to it not sufficient in some way?

And here is one from Paul

Did you even bother to read post 15?

as I know you think what Jesus said doesn't apply to you.

Where have I ever said that? You sure do like putting words in people's mouths...


Colossuans 1: 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.


First of all, that's Colossians 3:12-14, not Colossians 1.

Second, "Forgiving one another . . . even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do"!

Christ did not and does not just forgive anyone for no reason.

Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:3 NKJV

IF HE REPENTS, forgive him.

----

But what does ANY of this have to do with your claim that a Christian must ask forgiveness from God every time he sins? Repent? YES! Ask for forgiveness? No. Ask God to help you not commit that sin anymore? ABSOLUTELY!

But not one of these passages support the claim that we have to ask for forgiveness every time we sin.

What I said above stands:

For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:19-23 NKJV

If you are a Christian, does that not mean you are holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight?

Or do you think that what Christ has cleansed, you can make dirty again?
 
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