You are worse than a Philadelphia lawyer. It either does or it doesn't.
So which is it? You double talking snake.
Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
You are worse than a Philadelphia lawyer. It either does or it doesn't.
So which is it? You double talking snake.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Anything that is not of faith is sin and we are forgiven all trespasses (Colossians 2:13 KJV) including that of unbelief.
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No one said that it does!!!
Those verses are not speaking falling away from believing in Christ. Those of us with true faith know that as long as we live we will never stop believing the truth. And that is exactly what John is saying here:
"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2 Jn.1-2).
The very fact that you think someone can actually stop believing in the Lord Jesus proves that you faith is not a saving faith. If you have a saving faith you would know that since true faith stands in the power of God (1 Cor.2:5) then there is no possibility that true believers can ever stop believing.
And you prove that you really do not have a saving faith since you insist that those to whom the Lord Jesus gives eternal life can perish despite His own words here:
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish" (Jn.10:27-28; NIV).
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Are you confusing "initial justification" with "actual justification"?
1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
I am guessing actual justification. I just pull this one up since he says people confusing justification and sanctification in the Body of Christ. One event for us saints.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Romans 8:38-39 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV, Ephesians 4:30 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:13 KJV
Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV
You ignore the differences. Things that are different are not the same.
Right Divider
Body part
Even if they have some similarities.
You forgot 2 Tim. 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we [d]deny Him, He also will deny us;
v. 13 reminds us that God is faithful, not that our faithlessness/godlessness/apostasy will be equated as faith vs unbelief.
Heb. 6:4-6 is a stern warning to believers that cannot be rationalized or dispensationalized away:
Shorter book with sound exegesis, unlike MAD/Calvinism: http://www.amazon.com/Long-Faithfulness-Case-Christian-Perseverance-ebook/dp/B00CSXWUAU
MAD cliches, not exegesis in context. You are using Calvinistic proof texts that have been answered by free will theists like you and I. You throw MAD in the mix as a solution that is not needed for non-determinists.
Initial justification is actual justification. Justification is one thing, but sanctification, perseverance, glorification are another matter subsequent to conversion (which is initial, not terminal).
heir
TOL Subscriber
If we deny Christ the suffering, Christ will deny us reigning with Him.
Philippians 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
It means exactly what it says, as it says it and to whom it says it and it says it to Hebrews, not members of the Body of Christ.
heir
TOL Subscriber
I'm not a Calvinist nor the one who doesn't believe the verses mean what they say to whom they are written. Things that are different are not the same.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Always running to a commentary...
This is a MAD paradigm/rationalization, not sound theology/exegesis. You proof texted like a Calvinist would which does not fit Open Theist views or non-deterministic views.
I disagree with your interpretations and do not believe they stand scrutiny. You are the one not taking it at face value, but rationalizing it beyond the text to retain your OSAS view.
You have been influenced by MAD writers, speakers, etc. You did not invent your views in a vacuum.
A helpful booklet confirms my understanding of reading the Bible and followed decades after I had my view. It does not create my view. It is well written, helpful, defensible.
You prefer to not look at both sides of arguments like a JW cultist rather than wrestle with evidence that may contradict you. This is confirmation bias and leaves you stuck in error on this subject.
Anti-intellectualism is not always a good idea. If the book or link would have taken your side (and there are that do in the MAD and Calvinist camp), then you would not have a problem recommending it as helpful and confirmatory. Hypocrite and mere ad hominem attack instead of dealing with the argument (you attack the credibility of the person like Nick). This is not the way to reason with people, defend beliefs, rightly divide, honor God and others, ensure you are not in error.
I have many unread commentaries. Every post you make is essentially a commentary. Why not use one that is credible or evidence based instead of amateurs on the internet who won't even look at arguments against their views like mature scholars would?
"Pentecostal" clichés.
1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
heir
TOL Subscriber
I posted verses from the Holy Bible, moron.
I'm not the one who doesn't believe the verses mean exactly what they say, where they say it and to whom. You're the one doing the "interpreting".
heir
TOL Subscriber
Why not believe what the Bible actually says?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You make false charges against MAD because you are a Pentecostal who refuses to see the truth that the present dispensation did not begin on the day of Pentecost.
I will quote these verses from the NIV and not from either the KJV or NKJV. First, we can see that the Christian is told that he already possess eternal life:
"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11; NIV).
And this is what the Lord Jesus says about those to whom He has given eternal life:
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish" (Jn.10:27-28; NIV).
The Lord Jesus says that they shall never perish but you say that they can!
You deny the Lord Jesus' words and then you claim that you believe what is written in the Bible.
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