Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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heir
TOL Subscriber
I hate it when that happens!
heir
TOL Subscriber
:up:
heir
TOL Subscriber
You're right and according to Genesis 12:3 KJV some would be blessed while others would be cursed.
Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
The Gentiles to whom Paul was first sent were blessed (by the preaching of the gospel of Christ), they were heirs according to the promise.
The Gentiles to whom Paul was later sent (Acts 22:21 KJV) were cursed; they had no hope and were without God in the world in time past and it's because they were cursed, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV), they were "far hence"/"far off", but now they would be fellowheirs and of the same Body and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24 KJV), which is an extension of Paul's my gospel to even the likes of them and us (you should be praising God for it)!
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
It's not hard to see. It's to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery (Ephesias 3:9 KJV).
Now, get back to answering those really easy questions I asked you and let's see if there was really only one sending as you say and one Gentile as you say...
Post #1211 http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4058806&postcount=1211
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SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
One can really get lost in all of that "underlying Greek"!
heir
TOL Subscriber
Jew first and also to the Greek
all men after the remnant was gathered including the likes of double dogs like you and me.
We are right in line.
1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Especially, since we don't read it, write it or speak it.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No difference:
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).
If you do not think that "works" and "grace" are mutually exclusive then you really have no understanding of the principle of salvation by grace.
Here are the Lord Jesus' words spoken to the Jews who lived under the Law:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
Give me your interpretation of the meaning of this verse and tell me where you see that "works" are necessary to receive eternal life.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Because the word "for" ties what is said at verse 36 with what is said at verse 37:
" For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry" (Heb.10:36-37).
All those who received the Hebrew epistles were expecting that when the Lord descended from heaven that they would put on bodies like His:
That is exactly what John is referring to here:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).
The only coming of the Lord Jesus which can be described as an "imminent" one is the rapture and only those in the Body of Christ will take part in that. From what James says in the following verse we can know that the Jewish believers who received the Hebrew epistles were expecting an imminent coming of the Lord Jesus:
"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).
The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).
Right Divider
Body part
I was specifically talking about pre-cross Israel. Jesus definitely told them to keep the law and did not mention "righteousness without the law".
heir
TOL Subscriber
I hope that they'll see something from my long-winded posts that they hadn't before. We put it out there, hope for best and if they refuse to see it, move on to the next.I tend to be too lazy to use a lot of words.
1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The verse I quoted earlier was spoken by the Lord Jesus PRIOR to the Cross, and He addressed those words to the Jews who lived under the law:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
He also said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
The Lord Jesus also said these words to a woman who lived under the law:
"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).
How do reconcile those verses with your idea that those who lived under the law prior to the Cross could not be saved apart from works?
Right Divider
Body part
Is Jerry always looking for an argument?
My point is that salvation is always by grace through faith. But if God says "keep the law" the faithful will try to keep the law. Would a person be faithful if they ignored God's command keep the law? Would they have saving faith?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I am always trying to defend the word of God.
Cannot that be said of us as well? Are we not to try to keep the commandments of Christ (1 Thess.4:2-7)? If we are not faithful to those commandments could it be said that we do not have saving faith?
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Right Divider
Body part
What a coincidence, me too!
Gee Jerry, I guess so. I wonder why Paul thought that it was something newly known when he said:
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
What did he mean?
Why was Israel under the law? Why are we not under the law?
Teach me Jerry.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It means that this specific truth in regard to the gospel of grace was not revealed until Paul revealed it.
But Paul also used examples from past dispensations to illustrate what he said--"being witnessed by the law and the prophets".
And here are the examples from past dispensations which he used to illustrate people receiving the righteousness of God apart from the Law:
"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:1-8).
Here Paul used David, who lived under the law, as an example to illustrate the principle that salvation has always been apart from works.
Right Divider
Body part
I agree.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So do you agree that through out history that all who are saved have been saved by faith apart from works?
Right Divider
Body part
I've always said that, but I'm still wondering why Israel was under the law and we are not. Why did God give them tons of stuff to do? Just to prove the whole world wrong (again)? Did it require all of that?
Works never saved anyone and yet they were required for Israel.