Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?

[Right Divider]

Paul did preach to the Jews before he preached to the Gentiles. Here we see exactly what Paul preached to the Jews not long after his conversion on the Damascus road:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

There is nothing that even hints that at that time Paul preached the same gospel which he later preached to the Gentiles. In fact, here we read what Paul said about the events surrounding his receiving of the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles:

“But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus” (Gal.1:15-17).​

When Paul received the gospel from the Lord Jesus on the Damascus road he immediately went to Damascus (Acts 9:6-8). But when he received the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles he went immediately into Arabia. That can only mean that two different gospels were preached during the Acts period.



Of course it was. To the Jews he preached that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. To the gentiles he preached the "gospel of grace," the truth that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).



The Jews under the Law were also saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Please don't confuse me with the "one gospel" people.

 

[Right Divider]

Not all of it!

Where was Saul when the risen Lord first appeared unto him bright as the noon day sun?

Acts 22:5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

Acts 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

Acts 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Acts 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

That is the account of what happened in Acts 9.

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

Acts 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.



Now, watch this! Where was Paul in verse 17 of chapter 22:


Acts 22:17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;

Acts 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.

Acts 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Acts 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

Acts 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

That is NOT the same appearing or sending as in Acts 9 and the recount verses earlier in chapter 22 or the recount of the Acts 9 appearing in Acts 26!

Paul (then Saul) was on the road to Damascus when the risen Lord first appeared unto him. He wasn't praying in the temple, in a trance in Acts 9! Acts 22:17-21 KJV is a second appearing; the appearing the Lord promised Saul in the recalling of Acts 9 in Acts 26 (Acts 26:16 KJV)! It is a second sending unto those far hence Gentiles who in time past were without hope and without God in the world (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV). They weren't like the Gentiles Paul found in the synagogue of the Jews fearing the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 13:26 KJV), who were in the covenants of promise (Galatians 3:29 KJV), seeking a blessing (Genesis 12:3 KJV). The evidence is overwhelming!

I never claimed that Acts 22:17-21 was the SAME event. Only the earlier part of Acts 22.

BTW, Saul was NOT renamed Paul. Those were both his names. This is nothing like God changing Abrams name to Abraham.

Act 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
​

Is it certainly true that Luke did change from referring to him by his HEBREW name to using his GREEK name in the book of Acts. That makes perfectly good sense since he is the Apostle of the Gentiles.

Paul did NOT have TWO ministries to the Gentiles.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Please don't confuse me with the "one gospel" people.

Since you undertand that Paul preached one gospel to the Gentiles and another to the Jews then why did you say this?:

Paul's ministry was not a two-phase ministry.

And why did you not address my remarks to what you said here:

What would provoke them to jealousy more that the GRACE freely given to the Gentiles apart from Israel?

The Jews under the Law were also saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Jerry greeked me again!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" (Heb.3:14).​

Those who say that those who received the book of Hebrews did not enjoy eternal security quote this verse in order to attempt to prove their idea. They say that this verse teaches that these believers can fall back into a state of death.

The Greek word (metochoi) translated "partakers" might be more literally rendered "partners". One of the meanings of that Greek word is "a partner (in a work, office, dignity)" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The role of the "work" of "serving" the Lord, like the privilege of serving in the priestly house (v.6), is dependent on continued fidelity. This verse is not speaking of eternal salvation but instead about serving the Lord Jesus. We can see that the reference to "house" in the following verses are in regard to service":

"And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a Son over His own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end" (Heb.3:5-6).​

So by the "context" we can see that the Son's own house refers to His Priestly "service" (Heb.2:17; 3:1) and not salvation.

In the following verse we can see that those who received the book of Hebrews did indeed enjoy eternal security:

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:10,14).​

Why hadn't the Hebrews received the promise yet?

Hebrews 10:36 (KJV)

When did you receive the promise?

 

[heir]

Paul did NOT have TWO ministries to the Gentiles.

Go back and answer the questions I posed. Until then...

 

[Right Divider]

Since you undertand that Paul preached one gospel to the Gentiles and another to the Jews then why did you say this?:

Because heir is claiming that Paul had TWO separate ministries to Gentiles.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Because heir is claiming that Paul had TWO separate ministries to Gentiles.

I believe heir believes in two sendings of Paul, the second sending being an expansion of the gospel to other Gentiles...not necessarily two separate ministries because they are all in the Body of Christ.

I agree with her.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why hadn't the Hebrews received the promise yet?

Hebrews 10:36 (KJV)

"For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry" (Heb.10:36-37).​

They have not received this promise for the same reason why we haven't yet received it. We will not receive it until we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be made like Him. That is exactly what John is referring to here:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

The only coming of the Lord Jesus which can be described as an "imminent" one is the rapture and only those in the Body of Christ will take part in that. From what James says in the following verse we can know that the Jewish believers who received the Hebrew epistles were expecting an imminent coming of the Lord Jesus:

"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).​

The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Because heir is claiming that Paul had TWO separate ministries to Gentiles.

OK

What would provoke them to jealousy more that the GRACE freely given to the Gentiles apart from Israel?

The Jews under the Law were also saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Why do you not address that?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

"For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry" (Heb.10:36-37).​

They have not received this promise for the same reason why we haven't yet received it. We will not receive it until we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be made like Him. That is exactly what John is referring to here:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

The only coming of the Lord Jesus which can be described as an "imminent" one is the rapture and only those in the Body of Christ will take part in that. From what James says in the following verse we can know that the Jewish believers who received the Hebrew epistles were expecting an imminent coming of the Lord Jesus:

"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).​

The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

Why do you believe Hebrews 10 is about resurrection, per se?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Hebrews 4 comes before Hebrews 10.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why do you believe Hebrews 10 is about resurrection, per se?

The following passage is speaking of the Lord Jesus' coming at the rapture and at that time all Christians, including those who received the Hebrew epistles, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and at that time they will put on new bodies like the Lord Jesus' glorious body:

"For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry" (Heb.10:36-37).​

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The following passage is speaking of the Lord Jesus' coming at the rapture and at that time all Christians, including those who received the Hebrew epistles, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and at that time they will put on new bodies like the Lord Jesus' glorious body:

"For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry" (Heb.10:36-37).​

How do you know this is the promise referred to?

 

[Right Divider]

Go back and answer the questions I posed. Until then...

The Gentiles that joined with Israel where not "outside" the promises made to Israel. "Strangers" as the OT calls them were always able to join with Israel.

Exo 12:48-49 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. (49) One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Lev 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.
​

Those are the only two types of Gentiles. Ones that join Israel and are considered "as one that is born in the land" (Exo 12:48).

As I pointed out earlier the idea that the ONE NEW MAN is TWO groups of Gentiles is completely wrong. It is clear from Ephesians 2 that the TWO groups considered there are the CIRCUMCISED and the UNCIRCUMCISED.

 

[Right Divider]

I believe heir believes in two sendings of Paul, the second sending being an expansion of the gospel to other Gentiles...not necessarily two separate ministries because they are all in the Body of Christ.

I agree with her.

Do you also believe that the ONE NEW MAN is TWO groups of Gentiles?

 

[Right Divider]

OK



The Jews under the Law were also saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Why do you not address that?

And YET they were required to keep the law, whereas Paul tells the Gentiles that they are saved freely by His grace apart from the law and that they are not under the law.

It's all grace but there is still a difference.

 

[Right Divider]

Hebrews 4 comes before Hebrews 10.

You're a sharpy that way.... :up:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Do you also believe that the ONE NEW MAN is TWO groups of Gentiles?

I believe both groups contained Jews/Gentiles.

One group was in the promises during Acts, one group was outside the promises during Acts.

I'm pretty sure heir believes the same. :up:

 

[Nick M]

I believe heir believes in two sendings of Paul, the second sending being an expansion of the gospel to other Gentiles...not necessarily two separate ministries because they are all in the Body of Christ.

I agree with her.

As explicitly shown at Romans 11:11.