What do you think? Present Scripture for your answer whether negative or positive
Is Jesus God?
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
Greetings Bright Raven,
Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
There is One God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
Jesus is not God, but he is the Son of God. The following is a good starting point as a first consideration, Jesus is the Son of God because God the Father is his father, and Mary is his mother in the conception / birth process.
Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
There is One God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
Thank You Trevor, If what you say is true, how do you handle the following Scriptures;
John 1:1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
King James Version (KJV)
John 1:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
These Scriptures state that Jesus is God.
WeberHome
New member
Re:
Re:
.
To me they state that the Word is God; rather than that the flesh is God.
And according to John 4:24, God is not flesh; He's spirit; which is a non organic, non human substance.
_
Re:
.
To me they state that the Word is God; rather than that the flesh is God.
And according to John 4:24, God is not flesh; He's spirit; which is a non organic, non human substance.
_
Right Divider
Body part
I'd say the answer is no Jesus is not God, because God said so in Matthew chapter 3.
"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
God says that Jesus is His Son. He does not say that He is not God.
Right Divider
Body part
God's Son is God. It's not that hard.
Tigger 2
Active member
Reply to Post #3:
Most Bible scholars recognize that 'a god' may refer to persons (including judges, angels, etc.)
“[theos ‘god’ in NT Greek] is used of whatever can in any respect be likened to God, or resembles him in any way: Hebraistically i.q. God’s representative or vicegerent, of magistrates and judges, Jn x. 34 sq. after Ps [82:6]...” - Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 288, Baker Book House .
The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, 1979, Hendrickson, p. 43:
Elohim [Hebrew for god/gods]: “a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power.... b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels.... c. angels Ps. 97 7 ...”
Even the earliest Christians writers like the highly respected NT scholar Origen and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus; the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even super-trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for “a god.”
Jesus also noted this understanding (John 10:34-35).
If John can admit this fact, why do so many insist that John 1:1c must be translated as "the word was God"? Grammatically, it should be rendered "a god," but most translators WANT it to mean "God," and for that reason so translate it.
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/john-11c-primer_21.html
But the only true Most High God is the Father alone:
"Father, ....This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:1, 3, NASB.
Most Bible scholars recognize that 'a god' may refer to persons (including judges, angels, etc.)
“[theos ‘god’ in NT Greek] is used of whatever can in any respect be likened to God, or resembles him in any way: Hebraistically i.q. God’s representative or vicegerent, of magistrates and judges, Jn x. 34 sq. after Ps [82:6]...” - Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 288, Baker Book House .
The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, 1979, Hendrickson, p. 43:
Elohim [Hebrew for god/gods]: “a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power.... b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels.... c. angels Ps. 97 7 ...”
Even the earliest Christians writers like the highly respected NT scholar Origen and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus; the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even super-trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for “a god.”
Jesus also noted this understanding (John 10:34-35).
If John can admit this fact, why do so many insist that John 1:1c must be translated as "the word was God"? Grammatically, it should be rendered "a god," but most translators WANT it to mean "God," and for that reason so translate it.
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/john-11c-primer_21.html
But the only true Most High God is the Father alone:
"Father, ....This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:1, 3, NASB.
WeberHome
New member
Re:
Re:
.
It's commonly believed among regular Christians that Jesus Christ is fully human and fully God.
Well; in order to be fully human, Jesus would have to be biologically related to Adam. Was Adam God? No, Adam was an earthly creature that God manufactured from earthly ingredients. (Gen 2:7)
● Gen 3:15 . . I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers: he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
Just about everybody on both sides of the aisle agrees that the woman's seed was Jesus Christ. Well; the woman was fashioned from human material taken from Adam's side; viz: the woman was just as much Adam as Adam. Hence her seed is just as much Adam as Adam.
_
Re:
.
It's commonly believed among regular Christians that Jesus Christ is fully human and fully God.
Well; in order to be fully human, Jesus would have to be biologically related to Adam. Was Adam God? No, Adam was an earthly creature that God manufactured from earthly ingredients. (Gen 2:7)
● Gen 3:15 . . I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers: he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
Just about everybody on both sides of the aisle agrees that the woman's seed was Jesus Christ. Well; the woman was fashioned from human material taken from Adam's side; viz: the woman was just as much Adam as Adam. Hence her seed is just as much Adam as Adam.
_
oatmeal
Well-known member
Jesus is not God. He is not "God the Son" a term that scripture never uses to describe Jesus Christ.
There is an abundance of scripture that identifies Jesus Christ to be the son of God.
Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mark 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luke 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Luke 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
That is not all of them but there is plenty there to clearly show that Jesus is referred to as the son of God.
So which of those scriptures do you believe?
Why?
Which ones do you deny?
Why?
Last edited:
The Apostle Peter, and the Apostle John were both real Christians and they believed Jesus was the Son of God, and not God himself. Maybe that’s because Jesus agreed with them, and they were standing right there when God told them that.
Where does the Father ever say He is not God?
Yes, Jesus is God.
Those who say otherwise are the people Peter warns against.
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
Those who say otherwise are the people Peter warns against.
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
Greetings again Bright Raven,
There is a connection between John 1:14 and the following:
Exodus 34:5–7 (KJV): 5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Moses had asked to see the Glory of Yahweh, and this was revealed in physical glory that Moses could not fully behold, and also the declaration of the above moral glory. The phrase “abundant in goodness and truth” is similar to or a direct connection with "full of grace and truth", the character revealed in Jesus during his ministry. Thus John 1:1 is not talking about a separate physical being, but the moral character of God, the thoughts and plans of God, and the wisdom behind God’s spoken word and all of this finds its focus in God's Son.
Please consider the partial personification of God’s “word” in the following:
Psalm 33:6,9 (KJV): 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
Isaiah 55:8–11 (KJV): 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Another aspect of John 1:14 is that the moral glory revealed in Jesus is attributable to the fact that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father. Trinitarians avoid this, or try to replace this with another idea, but this refers to the fact that God the Father was the father of Jesus Christ, and the other two Gospel records reveal this truth Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35. The physical glory of Jesus was temporarily revealed at the Mount of Transfiguration and was not part of Jesus during his ministry.
Also note that John 1:14 says that the Word was made flesh. It does not say that God the Son added flesh to His existing Divinity, making him a God-man. All that the Word was became focused and complete in Jesus the Son of God. There is One God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
Different to many non-Trinitarians I do not believe that it is speaking of Jesus in John 1:1, but that “the Word” is a personification similar to the Wise Woman “Wisdom” in Proverbs 8. Jesus is revealed in John 1:14 and this is not speaking of his physical glory, but his moral glory, he was full of grace and truth.
There is a connection between John 1:14 and the following:
Exodus 34:5–7 (KJV): 5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Moses had asked to see the Glory of Yahweh, and this was revealed in physical glory that Moses could not fully behold, and also the declaration of the above moral glory. The phrase “abundant in goodness and truth” is similar to or a direct connection with "full of grace and truth", the character revealed in Jesus during his ministry. Thus John 1:1 is not talking about a separate physical being, but the moral character of God, the thoughts and plans of God, and the wisdom behind God’s spoken word and all of this finds its focus in God's Son.
Please consider the partial personification of God’s “word” in the following:
Psalm 33:6,9 (KJV): 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
Isaiah 55:8–11 (KJV): 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Another aspect of John 1:14 is that the moral glory revealed in Jesus is attributable to the fact that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father. Trinitarians avoid this, or try to replace this with another idea, but this refers to the fact that God the Father was the father of Jesus Christ, and the other two Gospel records reveal this truth Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35. The physical glory of Jesus was temporarily revealed at the Mount of Transfiguration and was not part of Jesus during his ministry.
Also note that John 1:14 says that the Word was made flesh. It does not say that God the Son added flesh to His existing Divinity, making him a God-man. All that the Word was became focused and complete in Jesus the Son of God. There is One God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Since you are not a Christian, you don't understand what you're talking about.
And since you are a troll, there's no point in saying more than that
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Can someone be equal with God yet not be God?
Jesus says people are equal to angels in their immortal state (Luke 20:36). In John 5:18 it is plainly stated that Jesus made Himself equal with God - therefore not just an exalted human (unless you believe people can attain that status in contradiction to Luke 20:36).
Hebrews says He was made a little lower than the angels for the tasting of death. In other words He was humbled by being incarnated. So says Philippians 2:6. He was in the form of God but humbled Himself and took on the form of man. God became man.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL