Is Calvinism Wrong?

[Robert Pate]

Knight suggested that someone should do a thread on this. Here it is.

Jesus said, "Beware of men" Matthew 10:17. It is from men that false doctrines come. In the case of Calvinism it was John Calvin. All false religions are founded by men and are man centered. The purpose of religion whether it be the Calvinist religion, the Catholic religion, or whatever religion is to lead you away from the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 4:4, into another Gospel, that is not the Gospel, Galatians 1:6-8.

The Calvinist is not interested in what God has done for him in Jesus Christ. The Calvinist is mainly pre-occupied in whether or not he has been predestinated to eternal life. He will search out the scriptures that he believes will support that he has been predestinated. It is all about him and is very subjective.

The glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ is not subjective, it is objective (out side of us). We had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel. The Gospel took place over 2,000 years ago before we were born, The Gospel is about how God in the person of Jesus Christ has reconciled us and the world unto himself, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. If God has reconciled us and the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, then no one needs to be predestinated. The effects of this Gospel are very subjective when they are embraced and believed upon. All that believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ are given the Holy Spirit and are born again by the word of God, 1 Peter 1:23. The granting of the Holy Spirit is how God honors ones faith in his Son Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:13.

Calvinist, Catholics and other religions do not believe the life changing Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are outside of the faith and are under the judgment of God.

Mod Edit--The over the top lines removed.

 

[Stripe]

Knight suggested that someone should do a thread on this. Here it is.

Jesus said, "Beware of men" Matthew 10:17. It is from men that false doctrines come. In the case of Calvinism it was John Calvin. All false religion are founded by men and are man centered. The purpose of religion whether it be the Calvinist religion, the Catholic religion, or whatever religion is to lead you away from the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 4:4, into another Gospel, that is not the Gospel, Galatians 1:6-8.

The greatest tool that Satan posses is "Subjectiveism". The Calvinist is not interested in what God has done for him in Jesus Christ. The Calvinist is mainly pre-occupied in whether or not he has been predestinated to eternal life. He will search out the scriptures that he believes will support that he has been predestinated. It is all about him and is very subjective. Satan is very happy.

The glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ is not subjective, it is objective (out side of us). We had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel. The Gospel took place over 2,000 years ago before we were born, The Gospel is about how God in the person of Jesus Christ has reconciled us and the world unto himself, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. If God has reconciled us and the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, then no one needs to be predestinated. The effects of this Gospel are very subjective when they are embraced and believed upon. All that believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ are given the Holy Spirit and are born again by the word of God, 1 Peter 1:23. The granting of the Holy Spirit is how God honors ones faith in his Son Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:13.

Calvinist, Catholics and other religions do not believe the life changing Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are outside of the faith and are under the judgment of God. They have embraced the doctrine of demons and are lost.

Calvinists teach salvation exclusively by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Everything else is window dressing.

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[Jerry Shugart]

Calvinists teach salvation exclusively by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes, but they deny the Scriptures when they assert that only some people have the ability to believe the gospel.

The Apostle Paul warned those who received his epistles that there would be people in the local churches who would pervert the Scriptures:

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears" (Acts 20:29-31).​

Paul also identified some of the "grievous wolves" who would pervert the Scriptures:

"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works" (2 Cor.11:14-15).​

In the following passage Paul reveals the method Satan's minions employ in order to pervert the glorious gospel of the grace of God:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-5).​

Here we read that those who are perishing had the ability to see the light of the gospel but they were perishing because they were blinded to its light.

That can only mean that even the unsaved can see the light of the gospel. That means that before anyone can be blinded to its light they must first have the ability to see its light. So all people have the ability to see the light of the gospel.

 

[Stripe]

Yes, but...

There is no but. That is the gospel. Everything else is window dressing.

Until they deny the gospel, they aren't denying the gospel.

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[Jerry Shugart]

There is no but. That is the gospel. Everything else is window dressing.

So apart from the gospel everything found in the Bible is nothing but window dressing?

 

[Stripe]

So apart from the gospel everything found in the Bible is nothing but window dressing?

:chuckle:

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[Grosnick Marowbe]

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[Grosnick Marowbe]

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[Nanja]

Calvinists teach salvation exclusively by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Correct.

But in order to Hear God's Words which are Spiritual 1 Cor 2:13, the prerequisite is that men must be Born of the Spirit of God.

Jesus said:

John 8:43, 47

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


You see, the Created thing has no say in the matter of what he is spiritually capable of hearing or seeing, but is totally dependent upon God's intervention.

Prov. 20:12
The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

God makes the Spiritual ear for Hearing, and the Spiritual eye for Seeing !

Thus the only Faith that pleases God is a Fruit of the Spirit Given in New Birth Gal. 5:22, because we know from what Paul preached, that those in the flesh [not Born of the Spirit] cannot please God Rom. 8:8 !

Also, God's Grace was not given to all mankind without exception, but only to His Elect Eph. 1:4-7 according to His Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph. 3:11 before the world began 2 Tim. 1:9 !

 

[Rosenritter]

“This doctrine is so horrible, that I am persuaded, if there were a council of unclean spirits assembled in hell, and their prince the devil were to put the question either to all of them in general, or to each in particular, to learn their opinion about the most likely means of stirring up the hatred of men against God their Maker; nothing could be invented by them that would be more efficacious for this purpose, or that could put a greater affront upon God’s love for mankind, than that infamous decree of the late Synod, and the decision of that detestable formulary, by which the far greater part of the human race are condemned to hell for no other reason, than the mere will of God, without any regard to sin; the necessity of sinning, as well as that of being damned, being fastened on them by that great nail of the decree before-mentioned.”


So while he didn't actually say the doctrine was Satanic, he did say that the devil couldn't have done a better job if he had tried.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

...

 

[Stripe]

Correct. But...

There is no but. When it comes to salvation, the only thing that contributes is grace through faith.

When someone replies to that with "but," you can safely ignore it all.

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[Arthur Brain]

Calvinists teach salvation exclusively by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Everything else is window dressing.

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What, are you one now? Calvinist's teach a bit more than that Stripe. If you ain't one of the chosen then there's no way you could attain faith for a start...

That's in basic terms but why convolute the waters...

 

[George Affleck]

“This doctrine is so horrible, that I am persuaded, if there were a council of unclean spirits assembled in hell, and their prince the devil were to put the question either to all of them in general, or to each in particular, to learn their opinion about the most likely means of stirring up the hatred of men against God their Maker; nothing could be invented by them that would be more efficacious for this purpose, or that could put a greater affront upon God’s love for mankind, than that infamous decree of the late Synod, and the decision of that detestable formulary, by which the far greater part of the human race are condemned to hell for no other reason, than the mere will of God, without any regard to sin; the necessity of sinning, as well as that of being damned, being fastened on them by that great nail of the decree before-mentioned.”


So King James didn't actually say the doctrine was Satanic, but he did say that the devil couldn't have done a better job if he had tried.

King James did not author this comment. It was a comment by Daniel Tilenus who later stated that the King agreed with him.
Hearsay.

It was directed at Calvinists whose doctrine, he said, made God the author of sin. This is, of course, untrue.

 

[Rosenritter]

King James did not author this comment. It was a comment by Daniel Tilenus who later stated that the King agreed with him.
Hearsay.

It was directed at Calvinists whose doctrine, he said, made God the author of sin. This is, of course, untrue.

Thank you for the clarification. I checked the footnote's source to here, and as you said, the original statement from from Daniel Tilenus:

Spoiler

https://books.google.ca/books?id=1R...t "unclean spirits assembled in hell"&f=false

Just for clarification, did you have any source that would indicate that James did not support the statement as claimed?

 

[George Affleck]

Just for clarification, did you have any source that would indicate that James did not support the statement as claimed?

I do not.

 

[Rosenritter]

There is no but. That is the gospel. Everything else is window dressing.

Until they deny the gospel, they aren't denying the gospel.

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Many people would agree that this is an accurate statement (or at least one accurate statement) of the gospel:

John 3:14-17 KJV
(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The question is whether Calvinism denies that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish" or whether it says that "whomever God chose to believe in him should not perish" and as such it might be good to look at the purpose of the gospel.

Mark 1:14-15 KJV
(14) Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
(15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Again, the difficulty arises where Calvinism says that the sinner cannot repent or believe unless God has selected him from before the beginning of the world. As such, it is not the hearer (or the sinner) that believes and repents, but rather God that believes and repents on behalf of the sinner and imparts this belief and repentance on the person who has no choice in the matter.

Those passages are normally understood easily enough in their simplest sense. There is a simple call for the sinner to hear the gospel, repent, and proceed in faith and belief, and in so doing he shall be saved by Christ. But with Calvinism in the equation, the sinner can do none of this, God can do this and he has chosen only a few people that are allowed to repent.

I have a couple (non-Christian) friends who once were speaking of their impression of Christianity. And somehow they had heard about Calvinism as well. Their words (as I can recollect?) "Calvinists are insane" they said. I didn't actually know what Calvinism was at that time, but that still was not a good testimony...

 

[MennoSota]

Many people would agree that this is an accurate statement (or at least one accurate statement) of the gospel:

John 3:14-17 KJV
(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The question is whether Calvinism denies that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish" or whether it says that "whomever God chose to believe in him should not perish" and as such it might be good to look at the purpose of the gospel.

Mark 1:14-15 KJV
(14) Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
(15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Again, the difficulty arises where Calvinism says that the sinner cannot repent or believe unless God has selected him from before the beginning of the world. As such, it is not the hearer (or the sinner) that believes and repents, but rather God that believes and repents on behalf of the sinner and imparts this belief and repentance on the person who has no choice in the matter.

Those passages are normally understood easily enough in their simplest sense. There is a simple call for the sinner to hear the gospel, repent, and proceed in faith and belief, and in so doing he shall be saved by Christ. But with Calvinism in the equation, the sinner can do none of this, God can do this and he has chosen only a few people that are allowed to repent.

I have a couple (non-Christian) friends who once were speaking of their impression of Christianity. And somehow they had heard about Calvinism as well. Their words (as I can recollect?) "Calvinists are insane" they said. I didn't actually know what Calvinism was at that time, but that still was not a good testimony...

Neither passage is difficult to understand.
Read the entire dialogue with Nicodemus and you will see that universal atonement is not what Jesus is declaring, nor is he saying that humans decide their own fate.
In Mark 1, we see John the Baptist teaching a repentance that is not unto salvation, but is for the Nation of Israel and the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel. Second, those whom God makes alive will also repent and believe...because God will cause them to do so.
Rosey, these passages are blessings, not difficult. Why do you imagine they are hard for a Reformed Christian to accept? The problem is not with the passages, but instead it is with your misguided interpretation of the passages.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

...

 

[Rosenritter]

Are you back? What a shame.

If he can be back and in good behavior then we should welcome him. Besides, I still want to find out which of those two opposing statements of his he will stick by:

1) That those whom God assigns to unending torment in hell deserve their punishment through renewed and perpetual sinning in that hell,

2) or that God could destroy all sin for ever by casting all of us into hell right now

I went to all the trouble of hunting down the links to his post to make in inescapable and he must have got so caught up in other behavior that he didn't have time to decide. I'd like to hear his answer as to which of those two statements he deems is correct, and which one he will say was mistaken.