What say you?
Is Baptism a requirement for Salvation
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
Right Divider
Body part
Not for eternal life by grace through faith. Nope! (water baptism that is).
Baptism was for Israel for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4 Acts 2:38) to be cleansed for the priesthood (Revelation 5:10) in the earthly Davidic kingdom.
Paul was not sent to baptize(1 Corinthians 1:17) and his gospel (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)made no mention of baptism. If baptism was necessary it would have been included in the gospel.
Bradley D
Well-known member
Baptism by John the Baptist was symbolic of dying to the old self and being reborn. Baptism by Christ is by the Holy Spirit.
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" (Matthew 3:11).
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" (Matthew 3:11).
Greetings Bright Raven,
Acts 8:5–6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
When the Samaritans affectionately believed the preaching concerning Christ, that is the true Gospel, summarised as “the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ”, they were motivated by this affectionate belief to be identified with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ by baptism in water.
The following indicates that baptism was by means of immersion in water and the Eunuch was enlightened by Philip to a correct understanding of Isaiah 53 which teaches the suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus:
Acts 8:35–37 (KJV) 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayst. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
A request for water baptism was made by the Eunuch, and Philip asked whether the Eunuch believed with all his heart. The Eunuch responded that he believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
The theme of the Book of Romans is Paul’s desire to impart a thorough understanding of the Gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the Holy Scriptures,) concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord Romans 1:1-2. The following is part of Paul’s teaching concerning the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the identification of the believers in his death and resurrection by means of water baptism:
Romans 6:3–12 (KJV): 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Kind regards
Trevor
Yes. The following Scriptures teach that water baptism was Apostolic teaching and practice.
Acts 8:5–6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
When the Samaritans affectionately believed the preaching concerning Christ, that is the true Gospel, summarised as “the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ”, they were motivated by this affectionate belief to be identified with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ by baptism in water.
The following indicates that baptism was by means of immersion in water and the Eunuch was enlightened by Philip to a correct understanding of Isaiah 53 which teaches the suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus:
Acts 8:35–37 (KJV) 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayst. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
A request for water baptism was made by the Eunuch, and Philip asked whether the Eunuch believed with all his heart. The Eunuch responded that he believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
The theme of the Book of Romans is Paul’s desire to impart a thorough understanding of the Gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the Holy Scriptures,) concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord Romans 1:1-2. The following is part of Paul’s teaching concerning the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the identification of the believers in his death and resurrection by means of water baptism:
Romans 6:3–12 (KJV): 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Kind regards
Trevor
Right Divider
Body part
That's a mess Bradley... That is specially in the context of the nation of Israel.
In the body of Christ there is ONE baptism and THAT baptism is BY the Spirit INTO the body.
1Co 12:13 KJV For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Water baptism today is just getting wet.
Greetings Bradley D and Right Divider,
Acts 2:38 (KJV): 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10:44–48 (KJV): 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 11:15–17 (KJV): 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Kind regards
Trevor
Baptism into Christ by water is also based upon the same concept as Romans 6:3-12 which I quoted before clearly shows. Baptism into Christ has this added perspective, that we are also baptised into the death and resurrection of Christ.
The early believers were subjects of both baptism by water and the Holy Spirit:
Acts 2:38 (KJV): 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10:44–48 (KJV): 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 11:15–17 (KJV): 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
No such division. The words of John the Baptist are specifically applied to the Gentiles, including Cornelius.
Acts 19:2–6 (KJV): 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Spirit. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Kind regards
Trevor
ttruscott
Well-known member
imCo:
The details of salvation, the fulfillment of the election promise to be conformed to the Son, are HIS worry and work, not ours. IF we are elect, our salvation will go apace and HE will direct us into all that is necessary, irresistibly.
If you are not elect, no ritual nor intellectual belief can help you escape your chosen fate.
The details of salvation, the fulfillment of the election promise to be conformed to the Son, are HIS worry and work, not ours. IF we are elect, our salvation will go apace and HE will direct us into all that is necessary, irresistibly.
If you are not elect, no ritual nor intellectual belief can help you escape your chosen fate.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The following words of Paul tells us exactly how people are elected or chosen:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess. 2:13).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
We know that before a person could be baptized with water that person must first believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:
"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).
Before the eunuch was baptized with water he was already "born of God" because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:
"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).
There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life and was "born of God" before he was baptized with water so we can know that being baptized with water did not contribute in any way to anyone being saved.
Besides that, in the present dispensation there is only "one baptism" (Eph.4:5) and that baptism is performed by the Holy Spirit when He baptizes believers into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13).
Greetings Jerry,
The same principles established with John the Baptist are true with Jesus except that the teaching of immersion, symbolising death and resurrection became clearer after the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Luke 3:3 (KJV): And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
Luke 7:29–30 (KJV): 29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Kind regards
Trevor
I disagree with your overall perspective. Believing the Gospel and being baptised with water to identify with the death and resurrection of Jesus is part of the one process.
The same principles established with John the Baptist are true with Jesus except that the teaching of immersion, symbolising death and resurrection became clearer after the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Luke 3:3 (KJV): And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
Luke 7:29–30 (KJV): 29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Kind regards
Trevor
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So you disagree that the eunuch was born of God before he was baptized with water? Would you explain why?
The rite of water baptism had nothing to do with an identification of the Lord Jesus'death and resurrection. That idea is not found in the Scriptures and is just an invention of men.
The remission of sins in this instance was not in regard to "salvation" but instead in regard to being in "fellowship" with the Lord. In the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society David R. Anderson writes:
"We are suggesting that John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter had dual ministries. One was to call the nation of Israel back into fellowship with Yahweh. The covenant relationship had long since been established. The nation of Israel did not need a new relationship with God. But they were sorely lacking in fellowship...John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter were all trying to persuade Israel to repentance and turning that would bring them back to a refreshing fellowship with God...Now as a nation they needed to repent and turn (Acts 3:19) in order to have fellowship with God" [emphasis added] (Anderson, "The National Repentance of Israel," Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, Autumn 1998, Volume 11:21).
The baptism of Acts 2:38 was for the purpose of cleansing those who were already saved to bring them back to "fellowship" with the Lord. It served the same purpose as the "confession" of sin which the Apostle John speaks of here:
"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth...If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:5-6,9).
Here John is saying that if we "confess" our sins then we will be cleansed from the things which interrupt our "fellowship" with God. The baptism of repentance was also in regard to confessing sins:
"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mt.3:1-2,5-6).
ttruscott
Well-known member
Read it again Bud, it only tells us WHEN we were chosen from the beginning not HOW. I reject UNconditional election because it also necessitates an UNconditional non-election, ie, an UNconditional damnation of some to eternal hell even though they are innocent and just as able to be elected as everyone. Therefore I support a conditional election and conditional non-election and the how of election, that is, the nature of the condition was that it was a response to our own free will acceptance (unto election) of HIS claims to be our GOD or our free will rejection (unto non-election) of HIS claims to be our GOD before the foundation of the world...
Either people caused their election or non-election by their free will or GOD caused it for no reason because both election and non-election were supposedly without condition, good or bad, or any merit or dismerit.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Not how?:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess. 2:13).
Chosen through...belief of the truth.
Greetings again Jerry,
Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Kind regards
Trevor
The record of the incident is in Acts 8:26-39. Briefly the Eunuch had been to Jerusalem to worship and this indicates that he believed in God as revealed in the OT and had not yet been converted to believe that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, nor had he heard or accepted that Jesus had been crucified, and died and then resurrected and exalted. Nevertheless he had an enquiring mind and was reading a portion of Scripture including part of Isaiah 53. Philip explained that this Scripture had been fulfilled in Jesus and then he preached other aspects concerning Jesus. This preaching led to a wholehearted belief of these things and a desire to be baptised, confessing that he believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Now getting back to your question, I understand the process of hearing the word, believing the gospel preached and then desiring baptism in water and confession of belief before the administration of baptism is one process. It is one birth consisting of conception, quickening and birth, the actual birth being by means of water. In the case of the Eunuch, this happened in the same day, but the one process can happen over a period of time.
I have already quoted Romans 6:3-12 in my first post (#5) and this teaches that true water baptism is an identification with the death and resurrection of Jesus. Possibly this highlights the difference between my belief that Jesus died as our representative, not as our substitute. Both this passage and Paul’s statement in the following indicates the significance of water baptism and the crucified / risen life that follows, both based on the idea of representation and our participation:
Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
The remission of sins under John the Baptist was salvation, but it was the start of a life going forward, and those that then heard the teaching of Jesus and witnessed his life, death and resurrection needed to continue on in the faith. Those that had been saved under the preaching of John the Baptist could fall away if they did not then accept Jesus. The preaching by Peter was also for salvation. The confession of sin in 1 John 1:5-6,9 is speaking of believers and the need to seek forgiveness for sins after coming to the faith. This is different to the preaching of John the Baptist and Peter and the initial belief, repentance and baptism.
Kind regards
Trevor
heir
TOL Subscriber
no way!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
A person is quickened "together" with Christ (Eph.2:5) and that life is described as being "eternal" (1 Jn.5:11).
And those who believe receive this eternal life which is in the Son:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath eternal life"(Jn.6:47).
Those who believed before they were baptized with water had already received eternal life which is in the Son. so water baptism had nothing to do with their salvation.
Today there is only one baptism (Eph.4:5) and that baptism is the one which baptizes believers into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13) and that same baptism by the Holy Spirit also baptizes the believer into the death of the Lord Jesus (Ro.6:3-4).
genuineoriginal
New member
If you have no opportunity to be baptized, then it is not necessary.
If you have the opportunity, you need to take it.
Acts 8:35-38 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. |
Right Divider
Body part
Acts 8 has NOTHING to do with the body of Christ.