How do biblical texts apply to modern society?
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PureX
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I don't use them, specifically.
As a modern Christian, I feel no particular obligation to contemplate nor abide by the ancient Jewish theology expressed in the Old Testament, nor am I compelled to adhere to the Greco-Roman interpretations of Christ expressed in much of the New Testament. All I'm really interested in are the ideals represented by the story of Christ's life, death, and resurrection. And even those I understand to be somewhat revisionist representations written by people who were not actually present at the time the events are purported to have occurred. So that I do not read this story as being literal fact, but instead, more as a mythical presentation intended to convey an essential ideal. And I find that in that capacity it functions, well.
Having determined for myself what I believe that ideal to be, and having determined the value and truth that the ideal offers to those who hold to it, I then choose to try and apply that ideal to the specific circumstances of my own life. It can be difficult, because that ideal often asks me to transcend my own default nature, but it's not that difficult to understand and recognize what's being asked of me, and why, in the course of my daily life. Fortunately for me, forgiveness is an ongoing aspect of the Christian ideal, and so I always have another chance to do better if/when I fail.
Bradley D
Well-known member
The Bible OT/NT tells me that homosexuality is a sin. On abortion I believe that the fetus is a living human being and that a person should be responsible for their actions. I see that in cases of incest and rape a gray area in abortion. On immigration I believe the laws of the government on it should be obeyed. I do not see much on it in the Bible. However, the NT tells me to obey the laws of the government. I see nothing in the Bible taking away peoples swords.
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This is worth a read:
http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Choices-Introduction-Scott-Rae-ebook/dp/B003774XBA
And get this free ebook:
http://www.ligonier.org/store/how-can-i-develop-a-christian-conscience-paperback
or
http://www.amazon.com/Develop-Christian-Conscience-Crucial-Questions-ebook/dp/B00FRF82F8
In most societies, when something is accepted, it is judged to be right. But usually this provokes a crisis for the Christian. When the normal becomes the normative, when what is (morality) determines what ought (ethics) to be, we as Christians will find ourselves swimming hard against the cultural current.
Scripture is the norming norm and transcends local cultural mores ("more-rays").
AMR
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Lon
Well-known member
lain:
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csuguy
Well-known member
While the scriptures were written quite a while back, humanity and society as a whole are not all that different. It is easy to see how many of the teachings and commandments directly apply to us today. For instance: the importance of love and forgiveness, the harm that sin brings, etc. For many sins, it is obvious even by today's standards why many of the things the scriptures condemn are, in fact, bad: theft, stealing, murdering, rape, etc.
Other issues, like gender roles, require that we first understand the reasoning behind it - and that we then evaluate it to see if it is still applicable, in some form, to us today. In this case - God made men and women different - physically, mentally, emotionally, etc. Not in a bad way, just in a different way so that they can fulfill different vital roles. Indeed - in general God gives some men this ability, and another that so that we may complement one another.
The woman bares the child, and is thus physically, emotionally, and mentally geared towards the raising of children. A man complements this by being strong - able to protect and supply for women and children, who are as a rule weaker than men. Based upon these natural divides between the sexes, it is easy to see why various traditional gender roles exist.
The men, being physically stronger, are naturally better suited for hard physical labor and war. For much of human history, that is the kind of work that was available: hard physical labor and war. Additionally, women were often with child and/or taking care of children. People had lots of children. It thus made sense for them to be at home - as it is by nature their role to care for children. And since they are at home for this reason anyways, and the men were out doing hard physical labor, responsibility for managing the household affairs fell to the women in general. I could go on, but you get the picture.
So then the question becomes: does this apply to us today? Yes and no. Some things are still true. The physical divide between men and women hasn't changed, nor their natural roles. On the other hand, society has changed. While there are physical labor positions and war, which are still predominately the realm of men, most jobs today are not all that physical. Most jobs today are desk jobs and require little physically. As a result, a woman can be just as capable as a man of doing it.
On the other hand, thanks to both women and men working full-time, the family has suffered. Women disdain their natural roles, and push off having children - even killing their children, such as through abortion, for fear that it will cause them to give up their careers and such. Women who do have children but still try to maintain their career must sacrifice the the time with their children to instead focus on work. Children today are thus raised with much less exposure to their parents in general than any past generation. They are instead raised primarily by society in the form of public schools, tv, etc.
So we find that in some ways we can deviate from the traditional roles - since society has changed in ways that the justification for the traditional divisions no longer exists. In some ways things are the same as they ever were - the natural physical divides between men and women are the same as they ever were. And we find that while some of the changes that have been made have been good - there are, on the other hand, very real, negative consequences as a result as well.
So you can see how through such a process of evaluating the scriptures in context, studying the reasoning and justification behind the teachings and commands of scripture, we can in turn evaluate their application to us today
Other issues, like gender roles, require that we first understand the reasoning behind it - and that we then evaluate it to see if it is still applicable, in some form, to us today. In this case - God made men and women different - physically, mentally, emotionally, etc. Not in a bad way, just in a different way so that they can fulfill different vital roles. Indeed - in general God gives some men this ability, and another that so that we may complement one another.
The woman bares the child, and is thus physically, emotionally, and mentally geared towards the raising of children. A man complements this by being strong - able to protect and supply for women and children, who are as a rule weaker than men. Based upon these natural divides between the sexes, it is easy to see why various traditional gender roles exist.
The men, being physically stronger, are naturally better suited for hard physical labor and war. For much of human history, that is the kind of work that was available: hard physical labor and war. Additionally, women were often with child and/or taking care of children. People had lots of children. It thus made sense for them to be at home - as it is by nature their role to care for children. And since they are at home for this reason anyways, and the men were out doing hard physical labor, responsibility for managing the household affairs fell to the women in general. I could go on, but you get the picture.
So then the question becomes: does this apply to us today? Yes and no. Some things are still true. The physical divide between men and women hasn't changed, nor their natural roles. On the other hand, society has changed. While there are physical labor positions and war, which are still predominately the realm of men, most jobs today are not all that physical. Most jobs today are desk jobs and require little physically. As a result, a woman can be just as capable as a man of doing it.
On the other hand, thanks to both women and men working full-time, the family has suffered. Women disdain their natural roles, and push off having children - even killing their children, such as through abortion, for fear that it will cause them to give up their careers and such. Women who do have children but still try to maintain their career must sacrifice the the time with their children to instead focus on work. Children today are thus raised with much less exposure to their parents in general than any past generation. They are instead raised primarily by society in the form of public schools, tv, etc.
So we find that in some ways we can deviate from the traditional roles - since society has changed in ways that the justification for the traditional divisions no longer exists. In some ways things are the same as they ever were - the natural physical divides between men and women are the same as they ever were. And we find that while some of the changes that have been made have been good - there are, on the other hand, very real, negative consequences as a result as well.
So you can see how through such a process of evaluating the scriptures in context, studying the reasoning and justification behind the teachings and commands of scripture, we can in turn evaluate their application to us today
be fruitful and multiply
-let the children come
-replacing growing grandchildren with a declining career will never be a good deal
PureX
Well-known member
Since these virtues are obvious in themselves, and they have been and are still appreciated by most cultures throughout human history, why does their being mentioned in ancient Hebrew scriptures matter to anyone but the ancient Hebrews?
God also made people who don't fit those gender roles. Also, presumably, so that their differences can fulfill some intended purpose, among us. Yet the ancient Hebrews, like many modern day bigots, were not willing to recognize this. And so have used their own bigoted understanding of God's will to slander, condemn, and punish these fellow humans that God has created and placed among us.
And yet God has also created a great many men and women that cannot bear children. And a great many who could but are not drawn to that purpose, for all sorts of reasons. So, apparently, gender is not just about procreation. And apparently, you do not know God's motives as well as you think you do. Just as those ancient Hebrews didn't know God's mind so well, either.
All I am seeing is how your idolization of some ancient Hebrew scriptures has biased your thinking to the degree that you cannot see or imagine how wrong your thinking has become. Because most of what you are claiming, here, is irrational even on it's face.
If God created males and females for the purpose of procreation, then he also created homosexual males and females for a purpose. And if God created breeders to breed, then he created the non-breeders to do something else. The anomalies among us matter in God's eyes just as much as the normalities do because he bothered to create us all, exactly as we are. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case with your biased theories. Nor with the biased theories of those ancient Hebrews that you are wrongly treating as God's messengers.
Bigotry (a form of contempt and condemnation) is not an expression of love. So being bigoted against some of our fellow humans is not "loving them". It's just condemning them for the purpose of elevating the bigot in his own eyes, and in the eyes of his bigoted friends and associates. And it's a sin against both God and our fellow man whether it's you and I doing it, or those ancient Hebrews.
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csuguy
Well-known member
While these things are obvious to us, that does not mean they are obvious to everyone. Hence people do steal, murder, rape, etc. To me, abortion is obviously evil. Yet it is legal nonetheless. Besides, if such things were missing from the scriptures it would not go unnoticed, but would probably lead to some very disturbing theologies (not that we don't get those anyways).
God made us male and female - which is a physical matter. The vast majority of people who claim to not fit into one or the other in fact are either male or female. The "gender identification" movement is non-sense - it isn't based upon anything real. Rather they abandon what is real - their physical gender - and demand we recognize them as unicorns.
There are some who truly are born with both genitalia, but these are rare exceptions to the rule - and must be addressed as an exception.
The natural, primary function of sex and genitalia is reproduction. There are those who cannot bear children - and this is considered a malfunction. There are also people who are born with eyes that cannot see - will you carry your logic through and assert that because some people's eyes don't function that therefore their purpose isn't to see?
First off, it is not bigoted to recognize sin for sin. Take pedophiles for instance. You can use many of the same arguments you use to try to defend homosexuality for pedophilia: why would they choose such a thing? You may argue, and be correct, that it is not something that they simply chose for themselves. And yet - that still doesn't make it OK, it is still a sin. Even the LBGT community would generally condemn them. We should feel compassion for such people, we should love them, but that does not mean endorsing their sin. And let there be no mistake - we are all sinners, our love for one another does not justify going around doing whatever we want.
There are many Christians who take things too far with regards homosexuality and such - they do act out of hatred towards the LGBT community, going around telling them they will burn in hell and such. They treat them as if they were somehow worse sinners than themselves, and this is a clear lie. I do not endorse such things, which IS bigoted behavior and which goes against the will of God. In their hatred they are unnecessarily pushing them away from God.
You have gone off on the other extreme - you have abandoned the teachings and commandments of God in favor of those of men. I understand your desire for compassion for the LGBT community, just as I understand the compassion people have for women who abort their children - for indeed, there are some serious issues that need to be addressed in that area. Yet understanding their position and feeling compassion for them does not justify their sins. It no more justifies the mother murdering her child than it justify the LGBT community. Rather, it is our job to help them see the error of their ways, because we love them.
Lon
Well-known member
glorydaz
Well-known member
I can see why you're so mixed up. You build upon false premises like this one.
Not confusing God's longsuffering for weakness (Rom. 9:22).
PureX
Well-known member
People can always choose to defy the common good regardless of who's holy book it's written down in.
He also made hermaphrodites with both sets of genitals. And He made the mentally deficient who cannot responsibly use their reproductive capabilities. And He made people who do not experience any sexual drive at all, whether they are capable of it or not. And of course he made people who are sexually drawn to their own gender. Why do you think God made all these people? … For us to ignore and despise, because they don't fit our biased theories about procreation?
When did God appoint you the decider of what is "real" and what isn't, for all of humanity? How is it that you have been placed above all the rest of us in this capacity? Such that you can determine who's thoughts and feelings get discredited and dismissed, while your thoughts and feelings become the yardstick by which all others are to be measured? Can you please explain to me from where you obtained this vast authority and responsibility?
Why do you assume that it's the genitalia that must determine who a person is sexually attracted to, when clearly millions of people are telling you that this is not the case? Why can't you see and understand that sexual attraction involves far more than our genitalia? Just as sexual intercourse involves far more than a biological need to procreate?
No, it's not. As all our genitalia is being used far more often for the elimination of waste and for personal pleasure that they are ever being used to procreate. And that's a universal fact. So why are you deliberately ignoring the facts of God's creation just so you can maintain this biased fiction about genitalia and procreation?
Only by those who want to bear children. And bigots who think that bearing children is all sexual intercourse is for. (Even though they, themselves, use their own genitals far more often for pleasure and for the elimination of waste than they do of procreation.)
Yes, I would assert exactly that. Because a human being is no more defined by the function of his eyesight than he is defined by the shape or function of our genitals. And I would assert that God allows these anomalies to occur so that we will all be able to recognize and understand this. And unfortunately, you are failing in that understanding because you have made an ancient human bias, sacred, in your mind.
Once again you seem to have somehow appointed yourself the decider of what is sin and what is not for all of humanity. Yet I don't see you possessing the superior and divine wisdom that would be required for you to honestly claim that authority.
Yes, God creates people who are sexually attracted to the weakness and innocence of children (or He allows these obsessions to be created), just as He creates sociopaths who cannot feel empathy, and narcissists who are lost to their own self-fascination. Just as He allows mental retardation and all sorts of other physical deficiencies. In fact, every one of us has some degree of imperfection, don't we? So really, being an anomaly is just a matter of degrees.
So why does God create us all in varying degrees of imperfect? So we can hate and disdain and proclaim some people to be innate sinners because they are 'less perfect' than we are, according to our own ideas of what is perfection? (That's bigotry, by the way.) Do you really think that? Because as I don't. I think all of our imperfections exist, to all sorts of varying degrees, to teach us the virtues of acceptance, and humility, and how to love each other regardless of our sins and our flaws. But the ancient Hebrews didn't understand any of that. All they saw was black and white, right and wrong, according to their own ideas of justice and perfection. And so that's what they wrote about. And that's why much of it is useless, or worse, to us, today.
To be candid with you, I think you committed one of the greatest insults of all against those people in your above post; when you just assumed their thoughts and feelings about themselves were of no importance or meaning, at all. You simply dismissed them out of hand because they didn't align with your own bias.
You dismissed their entire lives, all their pain and suffering, and their whole sense of self, without even a second thought. Just dismissed them, totally, as if they are nothing more than self-centered fools, not worthy of even the least bit of consideration. How do you think that makes those people feel? How do you think they perceive your God and your religion when you can just erase them from your consideration and your consciousness that callously? After you do that to them, I really doubt they care whether or not you condemn them to hell.
Actually, I hate to tell you, but it's YOU who's doing that. God is not an ancient Hebrew. God did not write their scriptures. And those ancient Hebrews did not possess a secret door into the mind of God. Yet when you read their texts, you treat them as if they did have a secret door into the mind of God. And because you have falsely idolized their texts, you are inflicting their bigotry and error on the 21st century. Not ALL of it, because you realized they were wrong about some things. But where their bigotry aligns with your own, you use their scriptures to protect and justify it.
The only real difference between you and I is that I am not here to justify, condemn, or absolve anyone else's sins. I have my own to deal with. I do not assume myself to be the determiner of what is "real", or what is "sin", or who is guilty of what. I am simply here to try and not sin, myself, and to try and love others as unconditionally as I can.
I don't care if homosexuality is a sin or not, because I am not a homosexual. I don't care if pedophilia is a sin or not, because I am not a pedophile. See what I mean? My concern is my own sinfulness; not everyone else's. And that's why I don't need or want any ancient Hebrews (or anyone else for that matter) telling me what my sins are. My sins are my responsibility, and no one else's. Just as yours are yours and everyone else's are theirs.
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I agree with this to the extent that we must garner general principles which we apply to our own situations. The difference would be in what is relevant or useful in finding those principles.
If the bible records only cultural traditions then it may not be very useful or have much bearing for us. But if the bible records, even in part, God's true word and will then it has a great significance for us. Looking at things that are consistent throughout scripture could help with filtering out potential cultural influences. And focus on Jesus as the ultimate revelation as much as possible.
Out of the topics listed, gay marriage and abortion are probably most directly covered in scripture.
Immigration could be addressed by looking at how the Israelites were to treat strangers. And love of thy neighbour can be relevant.
Not sure about gender roles or gun control.
PureX
Well-known member
I agree that it's both. I believe that the Bible is a record of one culture's theological traditions. And it is also inspired, in parts, by a divine spirit, which makes those parts valuable to me and to people of any time and culture.
But we have to know how to discern the spirit from the cultural dross. And that can't happen if we idolize every word as if God, Himself, wrote them. We must understand that the text was written by men, with their cultural biases and human motives fully intact. And then read it with a an eye for truth, not fiction, fantasy, or delusions of our own religious righteousness.
I have learned a lot from the Bible stories by reading them as symbolic, and metaphoric, and as allegory. So that each of the characters are intended to represent an aspect of myself. And of my own flawed human nature. Also, these stories were intended, I believe, to present us with conundrums about the relationship between the human and the divine. And these conundrums are not intended to be resolved. They are intended to keep us mindful of our ignorance, and to keep us humbled before a divine wisdom that we can't fully grasp. And in the NT, the message of Christ presents us with a challenge to love that few of us will ever be able to fully meet. Though we will be forgiven for our failure to do so, soloing as we keep trying.
We are to do our best to love God by loving ourselves and each other. And by leaving the judgment of others to God and to the state. And to the degree the the state asked us for our opinion, we should try to move it's policies toward love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity. As this is what Jesus admonished us to do, as Christians.
It's not hard to understand, it's just not always easy to do.
Derf
Well-known member
His picture is worth a thousand words, all completely comprehensible if you're willing to listen.
csuguy
Well-known member
Yes people must decide for themselves what to do - what's your point?
I acknowledge hermaphrodites and such in my last post, noting them as exceptions to the rule. As for why such people exist - that is a product of sin. For the world we live in now is not the perfect world created by God. We live in a fallen world tainted in all aspects by sin. That is not to say, of course, that the individual born in such a way is responsible in some fashion for being born that way - they are innocent. Theirs is a unique and unfortunate situation, and must be dealt with as an exception.
As for homosexuals - it is highly debatable whether such people were made that way by nature or not. People like to assert its genetic, but they have no hard facts to back up such claims. Meanwhile there are many cases where people were abused as children by the opposite sex, and so as adults they prefer the same sex. There are many cases of bisexuality - where people switch back and forth between partners of the two sexes as they feel like it. etc. Still other people are pressured into homosexual relationships.
So in some cases - as with bisexuals - it is a simple matter of choice for them. For others, as for those heavily abused as children - its a matter of psychological damage. And there are numerous other cases in between.
In any cases, it is evident from the scriptures that homosexuality, cross-dressing, etc. are contrary to the will of God, however it comes about. We should feel compassion for such people, but that doesn't mean endorsing a homosexual life-style. Such people may never be heterosexual, but they are fully capable of choosing to not have sex and remaining celibate instead. Indeed, according to Christ and Paul - celibacy is ideal for anyone who can accept it.
One doesn't need any special authority to recognize the facts: and the fact is that the vast majority of these people are either men or women physically speaking. Their feelings don't change this fact. It is simple physical reality. Or do you think one needs authority to recognize that when you toss a ball in the air that it drops back down to the earth?
I never said that the genitalia alone determine who one is sexually attracted too. After all, just because one likes women generally doesn't mean one likes all women - and visa versa. Nevertheless genitalia are an important part of the equation. Especially when considering what God's will for us is - he made us male and female for a reason. The very first commandment was to procreate.
This is your problem: you aren't considering what God's will is in this matter. Only what sinful men and women desire.
The pleasure associated with sex/masturbation is merely an incentive to have sex. Else people wouldn't have much motivation to procreate, being as costly and demanding as it is to raise children. Even when masturbating, a man releases sperm - aka the body thinks it is procreating. This isn't that complicated Purex - sex is an essential biological means of reproduction, without which man and most other species would die off in a generation. It is a well established biological fact that that the genitalia are for reproduction, just as the eyes are meant for seeing.
I never asserted that reproduction was the only purpose for intercourse, but that is its natural, primary function. There is no denying such basic biology - you are only fooling yourself.
No one said anything about defining a human by their ability to see. This was a question about the function of the eyes, not about what the eyes say about a person. You are simply being foolish here - denying something as basic as the function of the eyes to maintain your position. I can see talking with you about these things is pointless because you refuse to be objective in this matter.
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