Help! The mormon missionaries stumped me.

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richmondrk

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About a year and a half ago I converted from Mormonism to Christianity. After eight months as a Mormon I came to the conclusion that the Mormon Church is a cult, and Joseph Smith was a liar.

Recently one of my friends in a Catholic seminary was talking to a Mormon missionary about mormonism, and my name came up. As the Mormons kept me on the database, the missionary was easily able to look up my phone number.

From his conversation with my friend the knew that I left after hearing about Kolob. (One of the three mormons' heavens. It is also known as the Celestrial Kingdom.) When the missionary called, he was able to cite bible references that support the mormon belief that there are three heavens (1Corinthians 15:40-41). I was caught totally off guard, and I did not know what to say.

Since Bob Enyart listeners are the brightest audience in radio, I was wondering if one of you could help me with a counterpoint that addresses ( 1 Corinthians 15:40-41.) I want to be prepared if he calls again.
 
Lovejoy

Lovejoy

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I don't understand how those verses support the concept of three heavens? Are you talking about 2Corinthians 12:2, where Paul speaks of a man (likely himself) that is pulled into the third heaven? Because that is just a referrence to the concepts of the day, in which the third heaven is the layer beyond the sky and the darkness of space (other models used seven layers, for some reason). It doesn't mean anything else.
 
Nineveh

Nineveh

Merely Christian
I'm not sure why he would choose 1Cor 15:40-41 either. Paul is explaining the resurrection in those passages.

Genesis tells us there are heavens. In those same verses we see "sky" and the "heaven" where the sun/moon/stars are located. 2 Cor 12 talks about the "3rd heaven" which he also calls "paradise" (v 4) which I take to mean God's dwelling place.
 
SOTK

SOTK

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richmondrk said:
About a year and a half ago I converted from Mormonism to Christianity. After eight months as a Mormon I came to the conclusion that the Mormon Church is a cult, and Joseph Smith was a liar.

Recently one of my friends in a Catholic seminary was talking to a Mormon missionary about mormonism, and my name came up. As the Mormons kept me on the database, the missionary was easily able to look up my phone number.

From his conversation with my friend the knew that I left after hearing about Kolob. (One of the three mormons' heavens. It is also known as the Celestrial Kingdom.) When the missionary called, he was able to cite bible references that support the mormon belief that there are three heavens (1Corinthians 15:40-41). I was caught totally off guard, and I did not know what to say.

Since Bob Enyart listeners are the brightest audience in radio, I was wondering if one of you could help me with a counterpoint that addresses ( 1 Corinthians 15:40-41.) I want to be prepared if he calls again.
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Congratulations on your freedom from this cult! :thumb: Welcome to the Truth! :BRAVO:

I also don't see how your friend or the mormons are interpreting your scripture reference to mean there are many levels of heaven. Are you sure you have the correct scripture reference?
 
Lovejoy

Lovejoy

Active member
God_Is_Truth said:
first heaven---sky
second heaven---stars and planets
third heaven---the presence of God

the mormons are wrong
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Quite right, you are. If this is what the original poster is talking about, then I am stunned that the LDS would use such poor defense for their theology. They are usually more careful than this.
 
Vaquero45

Vaquero45

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richmondrk said:
About a year and a half ago I converted from Mormonism to Christianity. After eight months as a Mormon I came to the conclusion that the Mormon Church is a cult, and Joseph Smith was a liar.

Recently one of my friends in a Catholic seminary was talking to a Mormon missionary about mormonism, and my name came up. As the Mormons kept me on the database, the missionary was easily able to look up my phone number.

From his conversation with my friend the knew that I left after hearing about Kolob. (One of the three mormons' heavens. It is also known as the Celestrial Kingdom.) When the missionary called, he was able to cite bible references that support the mormon belief that there are three heavens (1Corinthians 15:40-41). I was caught totally off guard, and I did not know what to say.

Since Bob Enyart listeners are the brightest audience in radio, I was wondering if one of you could help me with a counterpoint that addresses ( 1 Corinthians 15:40-41.) I want to be prepared if he calls again.
Click to expand...

Hi Richmondrk, I found an article that I think you would find interesting on the topic, and good ammo if they call you again.

http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/mormon/plato_degrees.html

Not sure how familiar you are with Bob Enyart's teaching, but I highly recommend "The Plot" if you don't have it already. Far and away the best Bible study book I have ever bought. It will put you way ahead as a new Christian. It is a very rare church that teaches as in depth as "The Plot" goes. I wish I had seen it a long time ago. Lots of other great stuff there also. His radio show is great, but you wouldn't know how great his Bible teaching materials are until you pick some up. Money back guarantee on everything if I'm not mistaken. And no I don't work for him, just a big fan... :)
http://www.kgov.com/store/literature.html

Welcome to TOL!
 
Shalom

Shalom

Member
God_Is_Truth said:
first heaven---sky
second heaven---stars and planets
third heaven---the presence of God

the mormons are wrong
Click to expand...

:thumb: I agree....

richmondrk--Welcome to TOL and I am so glad that you saw the truth about Mormonism. One of my best childhood friends also recently came to this conclusion and is currently re-teaching herself the truth. But I feel for you when it comes to having the missionary on your back. This is exactly what happened to my friend. The second she declared to some of the other Mormons that she didnt believe any more, they were on her like white on rice and still continue to try after a year. They want to come talk with her, they invite her for dinner, they send her stuff, she has had to get out right rude with them. After she's real rude, they will disappear for about a month or two then send someone new after her. She is really annoyed with it.
 
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R

richmondrk

New member
SOTK said:
Congratulations on your freedom from this cult! :thumb: Welcome to the Truth! :BRAVO:

I also don't see how your friend or the mormons are interpreting your scripture reference to mean there are many levels of heaven. Are you sure you have the correct scripture reference?
Click to expand...

I am sure that the mormon missionary was using 1st Corinthians 15:40-42 as the scripture reference. I looked it up as he called.
 
Lovejoy

Lovejoy

Active member
richmondrk said:
I am sure that the mormon missionary was using 1st Corinthians 15:40-42 as the scripture reference. I looked it up as he called.
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You are right. However, the LDS (Joseph Smith himself, actually) changed that verse (15:40) to read that there are three degrees of glory in the resurrection. I checked it. Next time they call, just tell them to get a real bible.
 
SOTK

SOTK

New member
Lovejoy said:
You are right. However, the LDS (Joseph Smith himself, actually) changed that verse (15:40) to read that there are three degrees of glory in the resurrection. I checked it. Next time they call, just tell them to get a real bible.
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:chuckle:
 
SOTK

SOTK

New member
God_Is_Truth said:
funny in a way, and yet sad also. some people are trapped in it and have no idea that they are wrong.
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Yes, I think you are right. Some are trapped, however, I believe they all know that they misrepresent themselves as Christians and there is no excuse for that.
 
Mustard Seed

Mustard Seed

New member
richmondrk said:
About a year and a half ago I converted from Mormonism to Christianity. After eight months as a Mormon I came to the conclusion that the Mormon Church is a cult, and Joseph Smith was a liar.

Recently one of my friends in a Catholic seminary was talking to a Mormon missionary about mormonism, and my name came up. As the Mormons kept me on the database, the missionary was easily able to look up my phone number.

From his conversation with my friend the knew that I left after hearing about Kolob. (One of the three mormons' heavens. It is also known as the Celestrial Kingdom.) When the missionary called, he was able to cite bible references that support the mormon belief that there are three heavens (1Corinthians 15:40-41). I was caught totally off guard, and I did not know what to say.

Since Bob Enyart listeners are the brightest audience in radio, I was wondering if one of you could help me with a counterpoint that addresses ( 1 Corinthians 15:40-41.) I want to be prepared if he calls again.
Click to expand...


http://www.fairlds.org/apol/morm201/m20112.html
 
K

KgovArchives

New member
richmondrk said:
About a year and a half ago I converted from Mormonism to Christianity. After eight months as a Mormon I came to the conclusion that the Mormon Church is a cult, and Joseph Smith was a liar.
Click to expand...

Congrads. I wouldn't be too worried about getting stumped, it happens. The fact is, even if you had the correct answers the others have left here, it's unlikely they would have listened. Use this is an opportunity to learn, rather than consider it a defeat.

I've had a sign above my doorbell for several years now, "Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, Ring Doorbell only if you wish to convert to Christianity". The first one was stolen by one of these groups, (good examples there eh?), so I used some 1 inch screws on the next one. Needless to say, they've stopped ringing my doorbell, but they do leave a lot of phamplets though. I've left them some back, but they won't take them.

Acts 17:10-11
 
SOTK

SOTK

New member
KgovArchives said:
Congrads. I wouldn't be too worried about getting stumped, it happens. The fact is, even if you had the correct answers the others have left here, it's unlikely they would have listened. Use this is an opportunity to learn, rather than consider it a defeat.

I've had a sign above my doorbell for several years now, "Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, Ring Doorbell only if you wish to convert to Christianity". The first one was stolen by one of these groups, (good examples there eh?), so I used some 1 inch screws on the next one. Needless to say, they've stopped ringing my doorbell, but they do leave a lot of phamplets though. I've left them some back, but they won't take them.

Acts 17:10-11
Click to expand...


:thumb:

That's great!
 
T

thelaqachisnext

BANNED
Banned
When you really get the Bible under your belt -they'll run from you -but I'm sorry to say, usually with a smirk, laughing at you!
As you know from being a Mormon, they hurt, the same as all people, and need the Salvation in the YHWH in flesh that all people need.
To pretend that they have some super religion that is giving them some super one-up-man ship falls in the face of the truth to one on the inside (I've got lotsa Mormons in my family). They need the LORD'S salvation, but they need to know that they need it, and the only way to give anyone anything is if the LORD opens the door for you to share the truth of the Person of YHWH in flesh to them.


Praise the LORD that He has saved you from that darkness!

Take them to the beginning." YHWH Elohim" created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, all the hosts of them (all angels, all stars, sun, and moon) in six evenings and mornings.
Before that, there was nothing but eternity, YHWH's dwelling place, and no created being dwells in -or dwelled in- eternity, so the fables of Mormonism are not found in the Scriptures and are disputed by the Word of God.

In the created heavens, the angelic hosts dwell, in a realm that we, the fallen sons of God in our Adamic being are cut off from and cannot see into, but which realm sees us openly -Adam was created as a son of God; Luke 3:38, and given this home as his dwelling place forever, and was a glorified created being.

Psalm 115;16; Malachi 2:15; Genesis 1:26-28; Psalm 8.
The Redemption is about redeeming back the lost sons, to the glory that we were created to have, as sons of God, to inhabit this present creation, which is all spoiled and now will be regenerated by the YHWH who came in flesh to be our Kinsman Redeemer.
 
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