nikolai_42
Well-known member
Peter makes the following statement :
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2 Peter 3:11-13
In Revelation, we read this :
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
...
And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 21:9-10,25-27
Where it gets complicated is when one reads things like Isaiah's final words of prophecy :
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Isaiah 66:22-24
It is clear from Isaiah's words that the new heavens and new earth (the same term being used by Peter in connection with the thought that righteousness dwells there) isn't as pristine as it seems. In Revelation, it seems nothing that is wicked even enters in. In Isaiah, it seems that there is some sort of memorial to the judgment of wicked men at least in the vicinity of the New Jerusalem. With that understanding, it could be that the phrase "And they shall go forth" means venturing outside of the New Jerusalem. But don't the words of Peter imply that all that is destroyed?
With that in mind, I am wondering what answers to the following questions people may have. I realize this is not a straightforward or simple topic (as it always seems to be treated), so I'm not looking for a "gotcha" moment - but some thoughtful (or, at the least, scriptural) responses.
The primary questions :
1. What is it about heaven that makes it a place of sinessness? More specifically, if the gates of the New Jerusalem are always open, what is keeping the wickedness out?
2. Why the necessity for (from man's perspective) a great length of time to "bring many sons to glory"?
3. What is preventing another fall of man (in the new heavens and new earth) as with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? When God originally created, He called everything "good". What is the difference between the "good" of Genesis and the "holy" of Revelation 21?
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2 Peter 3:11-13
In Revelation, we read this :
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
...
And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 21:9-10,25-27
Where it gets complicated is when one reads things like Isaiah's final words of prophecy :
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Isaiah 66:22-24
It is clear from Isaiah's words that the new heavens and new earth (the same term being used by Peter in connection with the thought that righteousness dwells there) isn't as pristine as it seems. In Revelation, it seems nothing that is wicked even enters in. In Isaiah, it seems that there is some sort of memorial to the judgment of wicked men at least in the vicinity of the New Jerusalem. With that understanding, it could be that the phrase "And they shall go forth" means venturing outside of the New Jerusalem. But don't the words of Peter imply that all that is destroyed?
With that in mind, I am wondering what answers to the following questions people may have. I realize this is not a straightforward or simple topic (as it always seems to be treated), so I'm not looking for a "gotcha" moment - but some thoughtful (or, at the least, scriptural) responses.
The primary questions :
1. What is it about heaven that makes it a place of sinessness? More specifically, if the gates of the New Jerusalem are always open, what is keeping the wickedness out?
2. Why the necessity for (from man's perspective) a great length of time to "bring many sons to glory"?
3. What is preventing another fall of man (in the new heavens and new earth) as with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? When God originally created, He called everything "good". What is the difference between the "good" of Genesis and the "holy" of Revelation 21?