God will not give His glory to another, or will He?

[genuineoriginal]

Isaiah 42:8 8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.​

John 17:20-22 20 [JESUS]Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;[/JESUS] 21 [JESUS]That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.[/JESUS] 22 [JESUS]And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:[/JESUS]​

Did God give His glory to Jesus?
Did Jesus give God's glory to all Christians?

 

[Rosenritter]

Isaiah 42:8 8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.​

John 17:20-22 20 [JESUS]Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;[/JESUS] 21 [JESUS]That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.[/JESUS] 22 [JESUS]And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:[/JESUS]​

Did God give His glory to Jesus?
Did Jesus give God's glory to all Christians?

No conflict in God giving his glory to Jesus if Jesus speaking on earth is the same LORD speaking in Isaiah. That's even well proven comparing his statements of being the "first and the last" between Isaiah and Revelation.

Good question about the second, what comes to mind is that it might be a different sense of Glory between the two passages. God will not give his status (of being God) to another, but there are different shades of meaning of glory.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No conflict in God giving his glory to Jesus if Jesus speaking on earth is the same LORD speaking in Isaiah. That's even well proven comparing his statements of being the "first and the last" between Isaiah and Revelation.

Why would God give His glory to Jesus?
If Jesus is the same LORD speaking in Isaiah, He already has all the glory.

Good question about the second, what comes to mind is that it might be a different sense of Glory between the two passages. God will not give his status (of being God) to another, but there are different shades of meaning of glory.

I suppose we can always try to find the meaning of glory that supports our beliefs in each passage.

Equivocation The fallacy of equivocation occurs when a key term or phrase in an argument is used in an ambiguous way, with one meaning in one portion of the argument and then another meaning in another portion of the argument.

​

 

[Rosenritter]

Why would God give His glory to Jesus?
If Jesus is the same LORD speaking in Isaiah, He already has all the glory.

Do you suppose this may be relevant for keeping things in perspective?

Luke 2:40 KJV
(40) And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.


Waxed means to increase; Jesus, being born as an infant, waxed strong in spirit, and wisdom. Why would he need to increase? Because infants, by definition, start at a state where they are unable to process wisdom and higher thought.

Is it a right assumption that we already agree that Jesus is God? In Revelation he names himself as the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Four separate times in Revelation, for example:

Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

But this is a reference to the three previous times he said this to Isaiah, for example:

Isaiah 44:6 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.



So if A = B, and B = C, therefore A = C. Jesus is the LORD of Hosts, he that was speaking in Revelation was the same that spoke in Isaiah.

I suppose we can always try to find the meaning of glory that supports our beliefs in each passage.

Equivocation The fallacy of equivocation occurs when a key term or phrase in an argument is used in an ambiguous way, with one meaning in one portion of the argument and then another meaning in another portion of the argument.

​

Just saying that since we already have a rule that says the scripture does not contradict "the scripture cannot be broken" then we should resolve passages like that in a non-contradictory fashion. When God says he will not give his glory to another, it does not apply if the "another" is really himself, and it does not apply if the "glory" is a different type of glory than the original passage intended.


Revelation 21:23 KJV
(23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

That above would be another example where God and Lamb are used in parallel as indicating equivalence.

 

[Bright Raven]

Isaiah 42:8 8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.​

John 17:20-22 20 [JESUS]Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;[/JESUS] 21 [JESUS]That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.[/JESUS] 22 [JESUS]And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:[/JESUS]​

Did God give His glory to Jesus?
Did Jesus give God's glory to all Christians?

Jesus is God, duh.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Jesus is God, duh.

God stated He would not give His glory to another, but Jesus is giving God's glory to us.

 

[Rosenritter]

God stated He would not give His glory to another, but Jesus is giving God's glory to us.

And the short answer I had was that there is THE Glory of God that defines God and is not shared, and there must be glory that can be given and/or shared.

 

[CherubRam]

Isaiah 42:8 8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.​

John 17:20-22 20 [JESUS]Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;[/JESUS] 21 [JESUS]That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.[/JESUS] 22 [JESUS]And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:[/JESUS]​

Did God give His glory to Jesus?
Did Jesus give God's glory to all Christians?

In the New Testament the word translated as "glory" can also be translated as "honor." The same is true in Isaiah. In my opinion it should be "glory" in the Old Testament and "honor" in the New Testament.

 

[Rosenritter]

In the New Testament the word translated as "glory" can also be translated as "honor." The same is true in Isaiah. In my opinion it should be "glory" in the Old Testament and "honor" in the New Testament.

They seem to be closely related in English:

glo·ry
ˈɡlôrē
noun
1. high renown or honor won by notable achievements.
"to fight and die for the glory of one's nation"
synonyms: renown, fame, prestige, honor, distinction, kudos, eminence, acclaim, praise; More
2. magnificence or great beauty.
"the train has been restored to all its former glory"
synonyms: magnificence, splendor, resplendence, grandeur, majesty, greatness, nobility; More

 

[genuineoriginal]

And the short answer I had was that there is THE Glory of God that defines God and is not shared, and there must be glory that can be given and/or shared.

If we take a couple of verses out of context, it is easy to make them say something contradictory.

God won't repent.

Numbers 23:19 19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?​

God will repent.

Jeremiah 26:13 13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; and the Lord will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

In the New Testament the word translated as "glory" can also be translated as "honor." The same is true in Isaiah. In my opinion it should be "glory" in the Old Testament and "honor" in the New Testament.

God gave a lot of things to Jesus.

John 5:26-27 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.​

Whether Jesus is God or Jesus is the Son of God, the only way to read the New Testament with understanding is to read it as if Jesus is a man that God has chosen to honor with the highest honors.

 

[Rosenritter]

God gave a lot of things to Jesus.

John 5:26-27 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.​

Whether Jesus is God or Jesus is the Son of God, the only way to read the New Testament with understanding is to read it as if Jesus is a man that God has chosen to honor with the highest honors.

If Jesus was not God then he was a blasphemer. "God" and "Son of God" are not exclusive terms and the Jews recognized that as well...

 

[genuineoriginal]

If Jesus was not God then he was a blasphemer. "God" and "Son of God" are not exclusive terms and the Jews recognized that as well...

Jesus was very careful to avoid claiming to be God.
Jesus was very careful to give God the credit for everything He said and did.

Can you give a specific example of Jesus blaspheming?

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus was very careful to avoid claiming to be God.
Jesus was very careful to give God the credit for everything He said and did.

Can you give a specific example of Jesus blaspheming?

I can think of several examples of Jesus claiming to be God. I can even recall the Jews recognizing that he claimed to be God. Whether this was blasphemy or not depends on whether he was actually God. So who is the best judge of this? If God judges Jesus to be perfect, he did not blaspheme, and if he claimed to be God without blasphemy, He must be.

If there is a question of whether Jesus was God there are so many ways that this can be approached. Is this actually a question?

 

[genuineoriginal]

I can think of several examples of Jesus claiming to be God.

There are several examples that can be interpreted as Jesus claiming to be God, but there are no examples where Jesus actually made that claim.

I can even recall the Jews recognizing that he claimed to be God.

You seem to be making the same misinterpretation that the Jews made.

John 10:27-33 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.​

Whether this was blasphemy or not depends on whether he was actually God.

Before that, it depends on whether Jesus actually made the claim that He was God or if His words were misinterpreted.

John 10:34-38 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.​

So who is the best judge of this? If God judges Jesus to be perfect, he did not blaspheme, and if he claimed to be God without blasphemy, He must be.

And if Jesus never actually claimed to be God, there is no blasphemy to judge.

The only question is what did Jesus mean when He said He and the Father are one.
Unless you are attempting to read into the statement that Jesus was claiming to be God Himself, the most obvious interpretation is that Jesus was claiming to be of one mind and one spirit with God.

Philippians 1:27 27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;​

 

[Rosenritter]

There are several examples that can be interpreted as Jesus claiming to be God, but there are no examples where Jesus actually made that claim.

You seem to be making the same misinterpretation that the Jews made

Hardly a misinterpretation, Jesus confirmed their interpretation.

John 10:27-33
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.​

Help me out here and continue reading. You'll arrive at a place where Jesus answers and says, "Is it not written in your law...?" Where does he quote from, and how might that possibly be applicable to the situation at hand?

Psa 82:1-8 KJV
(1) <A Psalm of Asaph.> God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
(2) How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
(3) Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
(4) Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
(5) They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
(6) I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
(7) But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
(8) Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.


Jesus also identified himself as the judge of the quick and the dead, he said he was the one that would judge them in the kingdom to come. That makes him the God (with a capital G) in verse 1. It also makes him the "God" (capital G) that will judge the earth and inherit all nations.

Unless you think Jesus didn't know what he was quoting... but his audience did and they were madder than ever.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Hardly a misinterpretation, Jesus confirmed their interpretation.

John 10:27-33
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.​

Help me out here and continue reading. You'll arrive at a place where Jesus answers and says, "Is it not written in your law...?" Where does he quote from, and how might that possibly be applicable to the situation at hand?

Psa 82:1-8 KJV
(1) <A Psalm of Asaph.> God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
(2) How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
(3) Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
(4) Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
(5) They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
(6) I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
(7) But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
(8) Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Jesus corrected their misinterpretation by showing the that He was claiming to be the Son of the Most High, the Son of God.
You must have missed it.

Jesus also identified himself as the judge of the quick and the dead, he said he was the one that would judge them in the kingdom to come. That makes him the God (with a capital G) in verse 1. It also makes him the "God" (capital G) that will judge the earth and inherit all nations.

Unless you think Jesus didn't know what he was quoting... but his audience did and they were madder than ever.

The words of Jesus clear up that misunderstanding as well.

John 5:19-23 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.​

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus corrected their misinterpretation ... by showing the that He was claiming to be the Son of the Most High, the Son of God.

Spoiler

You must have missed it.


The words of Jesus clear up that misunderstanding as well.

John 5:19-23 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.​

You seem to be trying to evade the force of this point:
1. Jesus had identified himself as the judge of the quick and the dead who would judge the nations, see John 5:25-30
2. Jesus directed the Jews accusation of "you being a man, makest yourself God" (John 10:33) to the 82nd Psalm
3. The 82nd Psalm identifies the "ye are gods" (them) as men, and identifies he who judges the dead and the nations as "GOD."

Jesus identified himself as "GOD" to his accusers, his defense was not that he didn't call himself God, but that he WAS God,.

When Jesus identifies himself as "the Son of God" or "the Son" that is also nothing less than God. This should also be apparent from the first chapter of John.

 

[CherubRam]

God gave a lot of things to Jesus.

John 5:26-27 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.​

Whether Jesus is God or Jesus is the Son of God, the only way to read the New Testament with understanding is to read it as if Jesus is a man that God has chosen to honor with the highest honors.

I do not disagree with that. Thanks for your post.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You seem to be trying to evade the force of this point:
1. Jesus had identified himself as the judge of the quick and the dead who would judge the nations, see John 5:25-30
2. Jesus directed the Jews accusation of "you being a man, makest yourself God" (John 10:33) to the 82nd Psalm
3. The 82nd Psalm identifies the "ye are gods" (them) as men, and identifies he who judges the dead and the nations as "GOD."

I don't see how your logic holds up, when Jesus makes sure that they know that His claim is to be the Son of God and not God Himself.

John 10:36 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?​

Jesus identified himself as "GOD" to his accusers, his defense was not that he didn't call himself God, but that he WAS God,.

Jesus corrected them by making sure that they knew He was not claiming to be GOD, but that He was claiming to be the Son of God.

When Jesus identifies himself as "the Son of God" or "the Son" that is also nothing less than God.

Words have meaning.
Son does not mean same.
Jesus called Himself the Son of God, not the same as God.

This should also be apparent from the first chapter of John.

Many people have completely misunderstood the first chapter of John.
Here is a hint: it doesn't actually say what you think it says.