ECT George W. Bush's testimony about Billy Graham

[musterion]

Not a long read. Notice what he does not say.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/23/george-w-bush-how-billy-graham-changed-my-life.html

 

[nikolai_42]

Not a long read. Notice what he does not say.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/23/george-w-bush-how-billy-graham-changed-my-life.html

What GW doesn't say or what Billy Graham didn't say?

“Barbara and George, I believe what is written in the New Testament. But don’t play God. He decides who goes to heaven, not you.”

The same Graham had this testimony when he visited Dr. Schuller's Crystal Cathedral and said that when those who don't know the name of Jesus but "turn to the only light they have" that they are saved. I have heard that Graham didn't really understand the context that it was being presented in, but his whole response stands on its own (fairly or not) and I would be more fearful for someone who taught that than someone who simply believed what they were taught. I can't begin to fathom the pressures Billy Graham was under being on the worldwide stage, but by the same token I can't imagine why something like that would be said and then not cleared up (without ambiguity) very shortly after it if wasn't something that accurately represented his stance.

Graham mellowed in his later years, but I believe his compromise may have started long ago. You don't judge someone by telling them their destiny for not being in Christ, their own lives and words will do that. The good news only makes sense (as good news) in light of the bad news.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What about those who have never ever heard of the Lord Jesus? Do Peter's words in the following passage answer that?:

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34-35).​

If people deny the existence of God then they are without excuse for denying His existence. Therefore, all people have the ability to believe that God exists. And here is what the Scriptures say about that:

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Heb.11:6).​

 

[nikolai_42]

What about those who have never ever heard of the Lord Jesus? Do Peter's words in the following passage answer that?:

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34-35).​

I don't see Peter addressing whether or not people know the name of Jesus, but rather that the gospel applies to people in all nations. It is not a thing exclusive to Israel. Cornelius prayed to God - as is stated earlier in the chapter - so the light he had was real light. But to not distinguish between the light he had and the "light" of those caught in religions like Islam, Buddhism etc... is dangerous. Satan himself appears as an angel of light. So if his deception is all one has, will he be saved if he follows that "light"? That's different, mind you, than someone who follows what he knows and is turned from it (unilaterally) by God. In that case, God gives them light and then they know the Truth. Not because they were following a lie previously, but in spite of it.

If people deny the existence of God then they are without excuse for denying His existence. Therefore, all people have the ability to believe that God exists. And here is what the Scriptures say about that:

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Heb.11:6).​

If they earnestly, honestly and sincerely follow what can be shown of God simply by what is around them, then they may well find Him. But if they try to come to Him through Mohammed or Buddha or Mary (etc...), will He receive them? Will they find Him that way?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

What GW doesn't say or what Billy Graham didn't say?



The same Graham had this testimony when he visited Dr. Schuller's Crystal Cathedral and said that when those who don't know the name of Jesus but "turn to the only light they have" that they are saved. I have heard that Graham didn't really understand the context that it was being presented in, but his whole response stands on its own (fairly or not) and I would be more fearful for someone who taught that than someone who simply believed what they were taught. I can't begin to fathom the pressures Billy Graham was under being on the worldwide stage, but by the same token I can't imagine why something like that would be said and then not cleared up (without ambiguity) very shortly after it if wasn't something that accurately represented his stance.

Graham mellowed in his later years, but I believe his compromise may have started long ago. You don't judge someone by telling them their destiny for not being in Christ, their own lives and words will do that. The good news only makes sense (as good news) in light of the bad news.

Unfortunately, Billy seemed to, kinda go off the "Path" a bit in his waning years. He seemed to embrace some sort of "Universal belief system" of sorts? He seemed to be saying that, faith alone in Christ and what He did on the cross, was not the ONLY way to 'eternal life.' I think it was very sad to hear what Billy was 'preaching' towards the final years of his life. My Family used to watch the Billy Graham Crusades when I was growing up. I even watched his Crusades later on in my life. He always stuck to preaching the Gospel, then. However, later he seemed to 'mellow out' and be more accepting of 'other ways' to inherit eternal life?



His message had changed during the last years of his Ministry. I heard it said that his 'people' commented; He had always believed the same way, back to the 1960s. If that's true, then he may have held those 'other' later beliefs, back to the 60s, forward? I earnestly believe he's in Heaven now.

 

[nikolai_42]

Unfortunately, Billy seemed to, kinda go off the "Path" a bit in his waning years. He seemed to embrace some sort of "Universal belief system" of sorts? He seemed to be saying that, faith alone in Christ and what He did on the cross, was not the ONLY way to 'eternal life.' I think it was very sad to hear what Billy was 'preaching' towards the final years of his life. My Family used to watch the Billy Graham Crusades when I was growing up. I even watched his Crusades later on in my life. He always stuck to preaching the Gospel, then. However, later he seemed to 'mellow out' and be more accepting of 'other ways' to inherit eternal life?



His message had changed during the last years of his Ministry. I heard it said that his 'people' commented; He had always believed the same way, back to the 1960s. If that's true, then he may have held those 'other' later beliefs, back to the 60s, forward? I earnestly believe he's in Heaven now.

I didn't write any of what I did because I am doubting his salvation. I can't judge that - in that sense he was bang on. But when a person doesn't show any outward evidence of explicitly confessing Christ, one has to wonder how it can be said that such a person is saved (speaking of his words on Schuller's show - not of Graham's own testimony). There is no other name given under heaven...
So in that sense, I was shocked at Graham's words with Dr. Schuller. But my understanding is he became very ecumenical very early on. He would claim that Rome didn't have the gospel yet was apparently very good friends with Bishop Fulton Sheen (and praised him as a close friend). And in those pre-Vatican II days, he would send people who came forward at his revivals back to their Roman Catholic churches. So he wasn't being consistent with his own claims to belief. There are other allegations, but this one is not contested. So it seems to me that he was potentially compromised (in some way) early on. And his involvement in politics may or may not have weakened his evangelistic spirit. I can't say. And while his preaching was fairly consistent for the last 40-50 years of his career, it seems to me he became fairly ecumenical fairly quickly. Again...I'm not saying he isn't with the Lord - he had a clear testimony of conversion and he certainly showed fidelity in his marriage and in sticking only to preaching (publicly, anyway) - but his friendly association with avowed ecumenists, ardent supporters of Romanism, Hollywood types, and modernists meant that his message got watered down over the years. Not that he shouldn't have engaged them, but calling them friends and having them as guests in his crusades is not the same thing.

I am confident God has used Graham's messages to convert many. But the question of compromise can't go unaddressed.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He seemed to be saying that, faith alone in Christ and what He did on the cross, was not the ONLY way to 'eternal life.'

What about those who lived before anyone had faith in Christ?

What about his apostles who did not even know He was going to die on the Cross until shortly before the Cross. Were they not saved until after the Cross?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't see Peter addressing whether or not people know the name of Jesus, but rather that the gospel applies to people in all nations.

That is not what Peter said. Again:

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34-35).​

When Peter speaks of people "fearing" God he is speaking of people believing in the existence of God and therefore fear Him. One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "feareth" is "to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience."

And this reverance toward the LORD will lead a man to obey his conscience and that is what Peter meant when he spoke of those people working "righteousness."

And since all men have the ability to believe that God exists and to obey their conscience then there is not a person down through history who cannot be saved.

And that thought is expressed here as well:

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Heb.11:6).​

The LORD is not going to make any of His creatures without a way to escape hell.

He is not a Mad Potter who would make His vessels for the express purpose of destroying them:

"But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand" (Isa.64:8).​

Anyone who doesn't realize these facts do not have a good understanding of the things of the LORD.

 

[nikolai_42]

Reading Acts 10, there is no indication that Cornelius was serving any other God but the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. If he (and his household) feared what they didn't know, then there is little difference between his religion and that of those on Mars Hill who had an altar to the unknown God (Acts 17:23). It would be no different, then, from saying that someone who honest, earnestly, sincerely and fully worships Allah is really worshipping Yahweh. Knowing God isn't just a matter of believing He (or One) exists, but it is being intimately aquainted with his character because of His life being given to you. If there are those that have that, they will (by the Spirit of God) confess Him by name. The name in scripture is closely tied with the character.

When Peter said what he did in Acts 10:34-35, that was immediately on the heels of God telling him not to call unclean what He had called clean. Peter confessed the meaning of what he had been shown :

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Acts 10:28

So when he said this :

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Acts 10:34-35

He wasn't saying that any sincere religionist who believes in God and seeks him is necessarily of Him. Salvation is still very specific (as Peter goes on to confess) :

The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Acts 10:36-43

No man is saved by simply obeying his conscience or listening to his heart. That's what Paul was doing before the Lord converted him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He wasn't saying that any sincere religionist who believes in God and seeks him is necessarily of Him.

I never said anything about anyone being a religionist. But why did you not address the following passage which I quoted?:

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Heb.11:6).​

Are you willing that all of the people in history who never heard the gospel of Christ went straight to hell through no fault of their own?

The Scriptures reveal that all people can believe that God exists and therefore all people can have a fear or reverance of Him. And those who obey their conscience give proof to their belief that God exists. And those are the people of which Peter speaks here:

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34-35).​

The Scriptures reveal that the LORD will reward those people so common sense dictates that those people will not end up in hell!

 

[nikolai_42]

I never said anything about anyone being a religionist. But why did you not address the following passage which I quoted?:

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Heb.11:6).​

Are you willing that all of the people in history who never heard the gospel of Christ went straight to hell through no fault of their own?

No. If someone earnestly and honestly seeks God, they will find Him. But that does not equal someone following the God they understand as opposed to the God who is. If someone honestly believes Allah is God, does that make them an honest seeker? Not necessarily. Likewise, when Luke writes about Cornelius, I don't see any indication that he wasn't actually following the Living God. Peter had a problem with a Gentile being accepted - that was the point of the other verse you quoted. Hebrews 11:6 does nothing to change the reading of that chapter, that I can see.

The Scriptures reveal that all people can believe that God exists and therefore all people can have a fear or reverance of Him.

Not so. At least one does not automatically lead to the other. Just because one posits a God doesn't mean they posit THE God, nor do they fear Him. Man is expert in setting up his own gods and/or self-centered versions of the True God. So if they are fearing something that is not (at its core) the Truth, they are not actually fearing God. Acts 10 speaks of those that work righteousness. That is directly connected with the fear of God and so this is not merely decent works - this is good works that come only from (by) God. Israel's history is one long testament to the blindness that comes with idols and the deception those idols bring to bear upon those that follow them (even sincerely).

Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.
For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Isaiah 60:1-3

Who is that light? No one but Christ. Unless men have a natural instinct and inclination towards the truth (Truth), they will not seek it out. There is none that seeketh after God. So God has to bring them near. He has to draw them. So if He does, you can be sure that those who are so drawn will know who it is that draws them. It won't just be some God who has the truth. There will be more certainty than that. There is no unknown God to those that follow Him. And those that follow Him, fear and reverence Him. But some vague idea of following God is not what is in view. It inevitably results in the truth being made clear. Otherwise, how do they tell between Satan as an angel of light and the true light that lighteth the world?

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:12-17

Faith doesn't come by seeking, it comes by hearing. And Romans 1 says men are all without excuse.

And those who obey their conscience give proof to their belief that God exists. And those are the people of which Peter speaks here:

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34-35).​

The Scriptures reveal that the LORD will reward those people so common sense dictates that those people will not end up in hell!

Again, I don't see Peter speaking to those who simply follow conscience. He is talking about those who know God but who are not of the Jews. That was the whole reason he had that vision. He then said he didn't really know what it meant (Acts 10:17) until Cornelius said he was sent (by God...at least an angel from God) to seek out Peter (Acts 10:32). He seeks Peter out and Peter meets him and talks with him and realizes that God has men that are not of Israel and confesses as much (Acts 10:34-35). Then, proceeding on, Peter preached the gospel to Cornelius (Acts 10:37-43) explicitly citing salvation as being in Jesus' name (Acts 10:43). So Cornelius wasn't just following his conscience - He was following the Living God who directed him to someone who would preach the gospel to him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No. If someone earnestly and honestly seeks God, they will find Him.

I agree.

And all people have the ability to believe that God exists, right?

And all those who do believe that He exists have the ability to fear Him, right?

So all people have the ability to receive the reward, right?:

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Heb.11:6).​

 

[nikolai_42]

I agree.

And all people have the ability to believe that God exists, right?

And all those who do believe that He exists have the ability to fear Him, right?

So all people have the ability to receive the reward, right?:

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Heb.11:6).​

Only in the sense that all men have legs and so they are necessarily able to walk. Capacity and ability are not the same thing, as far as I can tell.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Capacity and ability are not the same thing, as far as I can tell.

What's the difference?

Please correct me if you think that anything I said here is incorrect and tell me exactly what yoou think is incorrect:

All people have the ability to believe that God exists, right?

And all those who do believe that He exists have the ability to fear Him, right?

So all people have the ability to receive the reward, right?:

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Heb.11:6).​

 

[nikolai_42]

What's the difference?

Please correct me if you think that anything I said here is incorrect and tell me exactly what yoou think is incorrect:

All people have the ability to believe that God exists, right?

And all those who do believe that He exists have the ability to fear Him, right?

So all people have the ability to receive the reward, right?:

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Heb.11:6).​

I would change "ability" to "capacity". All people have brains, but not all people are intelligent. You have a brain, but does that mean you have the ability to comprehend quantum physics or biochemistry? There is a deficit of knowledge that I would say is (even if indirectly) analogous to following God. None of the commandments are physically impossible to follow. Jesus proved that. So all men have the capacity to obey them. Do all have the ability? No. Without faith it is impossible to please God. But faith...where does that come from? If it is an inherent quantity that we have automatically as being a part of God's creation, then you would have to say that there is some sort of ability. But there are confounding factors - the underlying issue being sin - that prevent men from seeing what is true and having the will and ability to do it. The rich young ruler was capable of selling all he had but he was unable to. Naturally speaking, there was little impediment to his doing so. Spiritually speaking, he was bound to his possessions and could not. That's why sin is bondage. We are capable of not sinning but that doesn't mean we are able to not sin. Jesus told His disciples at one point that He had much to say that they (at that point) were not able to bear. They were capable of processing and probably even understanding what He said, but they were not able to maintain what was required of them. Paul said something similar to the Corinthian church (I Cor 3:2) because they were morally and spiritually weak.

All people, then, have the capacity for belief in God. Not all people have the ability - many are bound by unbelief in idolatry and other sin. For that capacity to become an ability, the Lord has to work in them to bring about a receptivity and open their blind spiritual eyes which have capacity to see but do not have ability. A dead body has the capacity for life but not the ability to do what a living person can do. Being dead in trespasses and sins means little to nothing if there is capacity AND ability in that body. Only the Word of God brings that dead body to life.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All people, then, have the capacity for belief in God.

OK, I see your distinction and you are right, all people have the capacity to believe that God exists and they are without excuse when they do not believe in Him.

And since all those who do believe that He exists have the capacity to fear Him, right?

So all people have the capaticy to receive the reward, right?:

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Heb.11:6).​

So why do some people teach that only certain people have the capacity to receive the reward and other people do not?