General question for all TOL religious people

[musterion]

If there is a living human on earth who you believe has spiritual authority* over you, who is that person?

*meaning it's God's will for you to somehow be under them or answerable to them; they likewise will ultimately answer to God for how they exercised their authority over you.

 

[chair]

No.

 

[theophilus]

If there is a living human on earth who you believe has spiritual authority* over you, who is that person?

*meaning it's God's will for you to somehow be under them or answerable to them; they likewise will ultimately answer to God for how they exercised their authority over you.

1. If I am married my husband has spiritual authority over me.
2. If I am a church member my Pastor and the elders and deacons have spiritual authority over me.
3. If I am a child living with my parents they have spiritual authority over me.

 

[musterion]

1. If I am married my husband has spiritual authority over me.

Does that mean he is answerable to God for you? Remember...having authority GIVEN over others means the one to whom authority is delegated still answers to the one who gave it.

2. If I am a church member my Pastor and the elders and deacons have spiritual authority over me.

I used to believe that but now disagree on dispensational grounds, but I know I'm in a distinct minority.

3. If I am a child living with my parents they have spiritual authority over me.

That, I can agree with.

 

[jamie]

1. If I am married my husband has spiritual authority over me.
2. If I am a church member my Pastor and the elders and deacons have spiritual authority over me.
3. If I am a child living with my parents they have spiritual authority over me.

No they don't. Each of us is accountable to God for what we say and do. We can't pass the buck to someone else nor can we say the devil made me do it.

 

[theophilus]

1. If I am married my husband has spiritual authority over me.

Does that mean he is answerable to God for you? Remember...having authority GIVEN over others means the one to whom authority is delegated still answers to the one who gave it.

1 Cor. 7:4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does;

1 Cor. 7:4 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

1 Cor. 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Eph. 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

So, yes, I believe every Christian husband will answer for his treatment of his wife. His leadership is to help her to be holy and without blemish.

 

[nikolai_42]

I used to believe that but now disagree on dispensational grounds, but I know I'm in a distinct minority.

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you
Hebrews 13:17

 

[theophilus]

No they don't. Each of us is accountable to God for what we say and do. We can't pass the buck to someone else nor can we say the devil made me do it.

You either "missed" the original questions or you are biblically illiterate.

Try again.

 

[fishrovmen]

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you
Hebrews 13:17

I had immediately thought of that verse. 1 Timothy 1:3, 3:4, 2:12, 5:7, 5:17 and 4:11 seem to indicate that teaching carries authority.

 

[jamie]

You either "missed" the original questions or you are biblically illiterate.

It could be both. I don't know nothin' 'bout nothin' no way.

 

[theophilus]

It could be both. I don't know nothin' 'bout nothin' no way.

That's not true.

So commit yourself to daily bible reading and study. If you like I will send you a "One Year Bible" to get you started.

Or you can try it this way: http://www.gty.org/resources/positions/P16/how-to-study-your-bible

Col. 3:16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

It's worth it!

 

[jamie]

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves...

Jim Jones and Vernon Howell would certainly agree with you.

We don't "obey" the person, we obey God's word if we are convinced their teaching is according to scripture.

 

[jamie]

So commit yourself to daily bible reading and study. If you like I will send you a "One Year Bible" to get you started.

That's not necessary, I have a Bible somewhere, maybe I'll look for it.

 

[nikolai_42]

Jim Jones and Vernon Howell would certainly agree with you.

We don't "obey" the person, we obey God's word if we are convinced their teaching is according to scripture.

And Adolf Hitler would agree, too...I do understand that abuse of authority is an issue...but don't forget that this is not merely a question of laws (and being "right") but one of conscience, faith. and submission. Things are not as clear cut as "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." or simply a matter of blind obedience - but they are involved in far more complex issues such as recognizing where all authority ultimately derives its existence.

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Matthew 23:1-3

Moses' seat is not simply a matter of recognizing the right thing to do - it's a matter of authority. The Pharisees had legitimate authority and commanded the right things but abused that authority in that they didn't heed their own teachings. So on the one hand you're correct - we need to measure all things against what God has told us. But in the above passage, this means knowingly submitting oneself to ungodly authority!

Daniel did the same thing. He submitted himself to the rulership in Babylon - Nebuchadnezzar, no less. The leader of the nation that was revealed to be the head of that entity which would ultimately be destroyed by the Kingdom of God. He exalted himself and forced men to bow to idols. Remember, though, that Daniel's being in Babylon was a part of God's judgment on Judah. So submitting to Babylon was also submitting to God. And again - Daniel didn't rebel against the King, but continued to honor him while doing as God had required (come what may).

And we are also told this :

Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
I Peter 2:13-14

So there again, God recognizes the authority (the office) and the individual holding the office as being responsible for that authority. If that authority is abused, the one given it will answer both for it and those over whom the authority is held. After all, Jesus even said that our reward in heaven is great if we suffer for righteousness' sake - He didn't say we should resist the authority, just persist in well-doing. In not rebelling against authority, we honor God. In obeying God in the face of authority telling us to reject His commands, we honor God. The minute we make it personal, we risk touching the ark (so to speak).

I guess what I'm saying is that when people make it about the person holding the authority, the matter becomes clouded. Instead, recognizing that all authority is there by God, submitting to the directives of that authority (unless directly commanded to sin against God) is what is being enjoined.

So to the OP, others DO have the rule over us and DO have spiritual authority, but we need to distinguish between blind obedience and submission as servants of God. We honor authority by giving them as much "room" to do their job as possible and submitting to their rule (up to the point of directly violating God's laws) for our own sake.

 

[jamie]

So to the OP, others DO have the rule over us and DO have spiritual authority...

Paul taught that the head of each man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.

Why do you disagree with Paul's teaching?

 

[Zeke]

No, I am is all I need to focus on, the outward need for a hero/saviour to come rescue me has long faded into the shadows of the allegory that spawned it, seeing the whole story of Christ within is for everyone to discern inwardly Luke 17:20-21 through the experience/revelation Galatians 1:12 of the seed/lamb slain before the foundation of this world Col 1:17 that must fall John 3:13 from heaven and die to be reborn/awake Luke 15:17 in the body/tomb/soil/kingdom/temple in flesh 1Cor 3:16 John 12:24 Luke 15:35 Acts 17:24, Galatians 4:24, 2Cor 3:6.

 

[nikolai_42]

Paul taught that the head of each man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.

Why do you disagree with Paul's teaching?

Which is precisely what I mean by making it personal. If you don't recognize all authority as being of God, then you will confuse the person with the authority and reject individuals (and pit the individual against the office). But if you recognize all authority as being of God, you won't see the contradiction of submitting to authority as submitting yourself to Christ.

For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
I Cor 4:15-16

 

[themuzicman]

If there is a living human on earth who you believe has spiritual authority* over you, who is that person?

*meaning it's God's will for you to somehow be under them or answerable to them; they likewise will ultimately answer to God for how they exercised their authority over you.

The local church is given that authority whenever we serve in that church. That's not a person, I suppose.

 

[jamie]

But if you recognize all authority as being of God, you won't see the contradiction of submitting to authority as submitting yourself to Christ.

Spoken like a true Catholic. Good for you.

Matthew 20:25-28 NET But Jesus called them and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those in high positions use their authority over them. It must not be this way among you! Instead whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave — just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
​

 

[nikolai_42]

Spoken like a true Catholic. Good for you.

As a protestant, I reject the authority of the papacy. It has no authority over me and its claim to authority over me would be invalid. Luther's protestation followed this line very well, I think. He rejected what the papacy was doing (and what much of the RCC hierarchy stood for) but did not (initially) separate. Rather, he showed them where they deviated from scripture and said he had to be in subjection to the Word of God - expecting (possibly) that the church would reform. They didn't, of course, but Luther wasn't chomping at the bit to reject the church's authority.

I'm not saying everyone who claims authority has authority over me. But those who do I am to honor for their authority - not for who they are.

Matthew 20:25-28 NET But Jesus called them and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those in high positions use their authority over them. It must not be this way among you! Instead whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave — just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
​

That is dealing with the manner in which authority is exercised (i.e. "lording it over"), not with the question of whether there is authority there or not. Otherwise, Paul would not have had the authority to judge those he did in the Corinthian church.