ECT Finally, NT Eschatology item #10: "saved" in Rom 11 is not a restored theocracy

[Interplanner]

Finally, NT Eschatology item #10: "saved" in Rom 11 is not a restored theocracy

Hope you have enjoyed the journey but some of you have been totally speechless. Just take any of the 'theses' and write them vertically:
like
this
and
ask
about
each
word
if
you
have
to,
until
it
is
clear.

In this case, 90% of the Christian public charges into quoting Rom 11:26 as though "saved" meant a theocracy would be restored over in Israel. One contributor here thinks the millenium is that and is for Jews, while the NHNE is after that and is for Gentiles.

Problem: saved does not mean this in the discussion of Rom 11, which is due to all of Romans, but even in 10 where the OT is quoted saying "everyone who calls on the Lord will be saved." He means justification from sin, which is the great theme of Romans: who needs it,
why they need it,
why they try backdoors to it,
how it was provided in Christ,
how it stops boasting,
how it promotes equality in the church,
how it reinforces the moral law,
why Christians need it all the way through their life,
why they need it on the day they die,
why Israel needs it,
why so few of Israel have it,
why Israel tries other methods,
what happens when justification is proclaimed to the nations, etc.

Well, being saved is the same sense as the quote of Isaiah59 and 27 about taking away sins. There is confusion that this is when Israel is pure and spotless in the catch-all (prophecies) millenium. But John the Baptiser proclaimed that the Lamb takes away sins, meaning, justification from them in God's sight. (Of course, this inspires practical moral cleansing as well). But the new covenant, as Hebrews shows, was the once for all remission of sin as a debt to God, not the once for all end of sinfulness.

Nothing in Rom 11 is about a future Israel theocracy. It is not really the future in a linear sense, but rather he's simply saying that those who have faith, who are the real Israel, are the ones who are justified from their sins and enjoy the Redeemer who came, and the new covenant, and the removal of the debt. All of them will be saved, and it includes quite a number of Gentiles.

 

[Interplanner]

Someone must have something to say...

 

[Bradley D]

Paul also spoke of a "partial hardening" of Israel. It could mean that Israel had failed in bringing in other nations and were hindering the faith. Abraham was to be a blessing to all nations. But, the Israelites were more into proclaiming outside nations as unclean. They also had become outward in their beliefs and their hearts had become stone. However, I believe that God still loves Israel and will keep His promise to Abraham. There will be a end of the time of the Gentiles. Then the time of Israel will come.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Paul also spoke of a "partial hardening" of Israel. It could mean that Israel had failed in bringing in other nations and were hindering the faith. Abraham was to be a blessing to all nations. But, the Israelites were more into proclaiming outside nations as unclean. They also had become outward in their beliefs and their hearts had become stone. However, I believe that God still loves Israel and will keep His promise to Abraham. There will be a end of the time of the Gentiles. Then the time of Israel will come.

The teaching of scripture is that Abraham would be the father of many nations through the one seed who is Christ.

As Christ has no offspring of the flesh you should be able to figure out that those of faith IN Christ of all nations are Abrahams and therefore Christs seed.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to THE promise.

LA

 

[DAN P]

Hi and it is a THEOCRACY in the OT and it still will be a THEOCRACY in the Millennial Kingdon as recorded in Rev 1:4 and in Ex 19:6 !!

dan p

 

[Bradley D]

The teaching of scripture is that Abraham would be the father of many nations through the one seed who is Christ.

As Christ has no offspring of the flesh you should be able to figure out that those of faith IN Christ of all nations are Abrahams and therefore Christs seed.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to THE promise.

LA

We are adopted.


"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father" (Romans 8:15).

"To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons" (Galatians 4:5).


As are the Israelites.


"Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises.." (Romans 9:4).

 

[turbosixx]

Hope you have enjoyed the journey but some of you have been totally speechless. Just take any of the 'theses' and write them vertically:
like
this
and
ask
about
each
word
if
you
have
to,
until
it
is
clear.

In this case, 90% of the Christian public charges into quoting Rom 11:26 as though "saved" meant a theocracy would be restored over in Israel. One contributor here thinks the millenium is that and is for Jews, while the NHNE is after that and is for Gentiles.

Problem: saved does not mean this in the discussion of Rom 11, which is due to all of Romans, but even in 10 where the OT is quoted saying "everyone who calls on the Lord will be saved." He means justification from sin, which is the great theme of Romans: who needs it,
why they need it,
why they try backdoors to it,
how it was provided in Christ,
how it stops boasting,
how it promotes equality in the church,
how it reinforces the moral law,
why Christians need it all the way through their life,
why they need it on the day they die,
why Israel needs it,
why so few of Israel have it,
why Israel tries other methods,
what happens when justification is proclaimed to the nations, etc.

Well, being saved is the same sense as the quote of Isaiah59 and 27 about taking away sins. There is confusion that this is when Israel is pure and spotless in the catch-all (prophecies) millenium. But John the Baptiser proclaimed that the Lamb takes away sins, meaning, justification from them in God's sight. (Of course, this inspires practical moral cleansing as well). But the new covenant, as Hebrews shows, was the once for all remission of sin as a debt to God, not the once for all end of sinfulness.

Nothing in Rom 11 is about a future Israel theocracy. It is not really the future in a linear sense, but rather he's simply saying that those who have faith, who are the real Israel, are the ones who are justified from their sins and enjoy the Redeemer who came, and the new covenant, and the removal of the debt. All of them will be saved, and it includes quite a number of Gentiles.

I agree, the only future Israel has is in Christ. I think ch. 9 helps to see that.

Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "through Isaac your descendants will be named." 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Christians are the children of promise and are spiritual Israel.

Phil. 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; 3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

Gal. 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Col. 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

 

[Interplanner]

Hi and it is a THEOCRACY in the OT and it still will be a THEOCRACY in the Millennial Kingdon as recorded in Rev 1:4 and in Ex 19:6 !!

dan p

There isn't anything about Israel in Rev 1 or in its paragraph about the thousand years. It simply means the very long reign of Christ, and it ends in a little while of rebellion.

There is no point in calling the NHNE a theocracy because there won't be any human government around per se. A lot of familiar things will be gone.

 

[iamaberean]

Nothing in Rom 11 is about a future Israel theocracy. It is not really the future in a linear sense, but rather he's simply saying that those who have faith, who are the real Israel, are the ones who are justified from their sins and enjoy the Redeemer who came, and the new covenant, and the removal of the debt. All of them will be saved, and it includes quite a number of Gentiles.

Good post!

Romans is probably the hardest book in the new testament to understand, you seem to have a good grasp on it.

I can't add much to your post, so here are just four more points.

1. There are two different children of Israel, those of the flesh and those of faith.

2. When Paul said "all of Israel shall be saved" he meant all the children of faith.

3. Jacob was given a symbolic name of 'Israel', he was not the real Israel because the Hebrew translation of this word means 'he shall rule as God'. Jesus is the real Israel. Every child of Israel includes Gentiles of faith as well as Jews of faith.

4. The church age will never end, so we must understand that when we hear 'until the fullness of the Gentiles have come in' means until the fullness of knowledge of God has come to the Gentiles. The epistles are the teaching of the Gentiles in the knowledge of God.

 

[chrysostom]

saved means eternal life
we are being tested
we are being made worthy of eternal life

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I agree, the only future Israel has is in Christ. I think ch. 9 helps to see that.

Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "through Isaac your descendants will be named." 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Christians are the children of promise and are spiritual Israel.

Phil. 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; 3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

Gal. 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Col. 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Yes.

LA