Eyuthro's delima
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I am not sure which audios you listened to, but have you tried reading the following thread?
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47024
and
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47023
There's some real problem's with Bob's argument. Socrates' question in the Euthyphro; "Is a thing pious because the gods loves it, or do the gods love it because it is pious?"
The problem is to avoid both the intellectual imperfection of arbitrariness(first alternative in Socrates' question) and the volitional imperfection of God's will being formed, determined and judged by anything outside Himself(Socrates second alternative).
The three Godheads agreeing and checking up on each other is stuck on the arbitrariness issue. Even if God does not change his will it is still completely arbitrary what the Godheads choose as good and evil to begin with.
The second horn of volitional imperfection of having something outside God form his will is the embodiment of open theism. With open theism human free will decision at least impart form God's will.
Not to mention that the verses and arguments that open theists use to show God can change his mind runs contrary to what Enyart says about the Godheads making sure they remain steadfast.
The problem is to avoid both the intellectual imperfection of arbitrariness(first alternative in Socrates' question) and the volitional imperfection of God's will being formed, determined and judged by anything outside Himself(Socrates second alternative).
The three Godheads agreeing and checking up on each other is stuck on the arbitrariness issue. Even if God does not change his will it is still completely arbitrary what the Godheads choose as good and evil to begin with.
The second horn of volitional imperfection of having something outside God form his will is the embodiment of open theism. With open theism human free will decision at least impart form God's will.
Not to mention that the verses and arguments that open theists use to show God can change his mind runs contrary to what Enyart says about the Godheads making sure they remain steadfast.
I would have to say this comment is ill informed at best. Do you really think God is arbitrary? God is not, God is Holy and Good. Your comment implies that God could easily say child molestation is good and helping those in need is evil. Really? You have very strange views for a Catholic.
Since an open thiestic view is fullyconsistant with the Bible, there is no problem here. Remember the open thieism does not man that mans will is equivilant to God's will, rather, mans will is free to choose between that which is available to him. For instance, I can choose between vanilla or chocolate and I can choose to love od or reject Him. I cannot choose to suddenly grow wings and fly.wwww said:
I don't know that anybody would say God changed His mind. He has certainly changed the way He interacts with men and men have swayed God's will even if only for a brief time (remember Lot). But we can always count on God to be there. We can always count on God to clearly show us what is good and waht is evil. We can always count on God's salvation (if we choose to) and we can count on God's judgment. We can count on God to keep His word and complete His plan for the redemption of men.wwww said:
Marcus Red
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That was easy.
God would have to change his mind in order to change the way he interacts with men. "Swaying God's will" is one horn of the Euthyprho's dilemma. According to Scripture if you take it literally, God has changed his word so He doesn't always "keep his word."
Why would God have to change His mind to change the way he interacts with men? I have two daughters. As they grow up I change the way they I interact with them. The things that my daughter enjoyed when she was two are very different from the tings she enjoys now that she is twelve (cheeper too but that is a whole different story!!). My goals for her have not changed. I wan for her to grow up with faith in God, solid self esteme, a good moral character, a good education and the ability to understand the consequences of the choices she makes. I have not changed my mind about any of those things yet I have changed the way I interact with her to teach her those things. God does the same thing. His plans never change. His goals never change. But He will change the way He deals with men when doing so works better with His plans and goals.
All you are describing is that there are some things you have not changed and some things yyou have.
In order for us to change our ways of interaction takes our mind to cause it. This plays intersting enough in the argument Aquinas used to refute Euthyphro's dilemma.
Either way, to say God changes is to say he is full of potential to change and not pure actuality which a first cause must be.
In order for us to change our ways of interaction takes our mind to cause it. This plays intersting enough in the argument Aquinas used to refute Euthyphro's dilemma.
Either way, to say God changes is to say he is full of potential to change and not pure actuality which a first cause must be.
But what is He changing? Is He changing His goals and His plans or is He changing the way He deals with us to accomplish His goals and plans? God is not a static, God interacts with His creation. Why is that a problem for you?
I disagree. I think God is very active in His creation changing the hearts of men. The physical creation tends to itself, but God is always active in the spiritual life of men.
You are getting lose with your definitions. You will have to define how you mean change and what you think changes and what does not. I have already provided you with examples of what I believe God is doing.wwww said:
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