Enoch Moses and Eliyah not in heaven?

C

clefty

New member
Did Elijah Go To Heaven?
You have been told that Elijah went to heaven. Yet over 900 years after Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind Jesus Himself said. "NO MAN ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man!" (John 3:13.)
Is this a Bible contradiction? Did Elijah really ascend to the heaven where God’s throne is—even though Jesus said he didn’t?
If Elijah is not in heaven today, then where did Elijah go?


http://www.cgom.org/Publications/Booklets/Enoch_Elijah.htm

Some people believe that Enoch did not die but was taken directly to heaven where God is. But, Enoch eventually died, as all humans die. How can we know? The apostle Paul mentioned the circumstances associated with Enoch in Hebrews 11:5, along with other men of faith, and then stated: "These all died in faith, not having received the promises" (Hebrews 11:13). Yes, Enoch died, and he did not receive the promise of heaven (verse 16) at the time the book of Hebrews was written.

Based on Hebrews 11:5,13 and Jesus’ statement in John.3:13, "no man hath ascended up to heaven", how are we to understand the account of Enoch? Genesis 5:21-24 says that Enoch's days, alive on Earth, ended at 365 years old. The question is, did he die, was he taken to heaven alive, or was he transported to another location on Earth?

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/enoch.html


If people went to heaven right after death and were conscious in that after life imagine what stories Lazarus would have to tell after being dead four days and in heaven...and then brought back down to earth and this life of flesh again...

As it is there is nothing from Lazarus or any other persons resurrected from the dead...
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
In the following critical passage for the topic at hand:

"ει μη" = "if not", (that is, literally, but it is often rendered "except", "unless", "but", etc.).

John3:13 W/H
13 και ουδεις αναβεβηκεν εις τον ουρανον ει μη ο εκ του ουρανου καταβας ο υιος του ανθρωπου

Here are some better options and higher probabilities:

13 And no one has ascended into the heavens if not he that is from the heavens has descended, the Son of Man

13 And no one has ascended into the heavens unless he that is from the heavens has descended, the Son of Man

13 And no one has ascended into the heavens if he that is from the heavens has not descended, the Son of Man

What it would essentially mean is this:

Unless the Son of Man has descended upon you, (like a Dove), you will not be ascending into the heavens.

Proverbs 30:4
4 Who has ascended into the heavens and descended[?] Who has gathered the wind in his fists[?] Who has bound the waters in his garment[?] Who has established all the ends of the earth[?] What is his name, and what is the name of his son, if you know?

Do the question marks belong in the places where I have put them in brackets?

Who is Miy? Who is Who? :)
 
C

clefty

New member
daqq said:
In the following critical passage for the topic at hand:

"ει μη" = "if not", (that is, literally, but it is often rendered "except", "unless", "but", etc.).

John3:13 W/H
13 και ουδεις αναβεβηκεν εις τον ουρανον ει μη ο εκ του ουρανου καταβας ο υιος του ανθρωπου

Here are some better options and higher probabilities:

13 And no one has ascended into the heavens if not he that is from the heavens has descended, the Son of Man

13 And no one has ascended into the heavens unless he that is from the heavens has descended, the Son of Man

13 And no one has ascended into the heavens if he that is from the heavens has not descended, the Son of Man

What it would essentially mean is this:

Unless the Son of Man has descended upon you, (like a Dove), you will not be ascending into the heavens.

Proverbs 30:4
4 Who has ascended into the heavens and descended[?] Who has gathered the wind in his fists[?] Who has bound the waters in his garment[?] Who has established all the ends of the earth[?] What is his name, and what is the name of his son, if you know?

Do the question marks belong in the places where I have put them in brackets?

Who is Miy? Who is Who? :)
Click to expand...

"If not" tweaks the context...Yahushua here was confirming His authotirty to speak of things in heaven as He had already been there

"Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"

To make it "if not" at this point is a stretch-

And as now entrance into heaven is on condition the Son of Man has descended upon you "like a dove" which at the time of Enoch Moses and Eliyah He had/did not being Son of Man only from His earthly birth


Paul writes that there are multiple "heavens" in 2 Cor 12:2 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven" (ouranos).



Sadduccees didn't believe in resurrections...odd they would dismiss Enoch Moses Eliyah
 
beameup

beameup

New member
clefty said:
Isn't "bosom of Abraham" a later allegory?

Why would it need relocating?
Click to expand...

Your thinking is "inside the box". There are probably 10 dimensions, and we live in 4 dimensions (3 space + time). Not only that, but our limited environment is artificial and temporary; "reality" exists outside our environment.
 
T

Truster

New member
daqq said:
In the following critical passage for the topic at hand:

"ει μη" = "if not", (that is, literally, but it is often rendered "except", "unless", "but", etc.).

John3:13 W/H
13 και ουδεις αναβεβηκεν εις τον ουρανον ει μη ο εκ του ουρανου καταβας ο υιος του ανθρωπου

Here are some better options and higher probabilities:

13 And no one has ascended into the heavens if not he that is from the heavens has descended, the Son of Man

13 And no one has ascended into the heavens unless he that is from the heavens has descended, the Son of Man

13 And no one has ascended into the heavens if he that is from the heavens has not descended, the Son of Man

What it would essentially mean is this:

Unless the Son of Man has descended upon you, (like a Dove), you will not be ascending into the heavens.

Proverbs 30:4
4 Who has ascended into the heavens and descended[?] Who has gathered the wind in his fists[?] Who has bound the waters in his garment[?] Who has established all the ends of the earth[?] What is his name, and what is the name of his son, if you know?

Do the question marks belong in the places where I have put them in brackets?

Who is Miy? Who is Who? :)
Click to expand...

You'd be better off discovering what Messiah was saying in John 3:13 rather than what He wasn't saying.
 
C

clefty

New member
beameup said:
Your thinking is "inside the box". There are probably 10 dimensions, and we live in 4 dimensions (3 space + time). Not only that, but our limited environment is artificial and temporary; "reality" exists outside our environment.
Click to expand...

I am well aware this world is not my home...

But it is the realm in which all those of flesh and bone translate to dust...

But not next time...
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
clefty said:
"If not" tweaks the context...Yahushua here was confirming His authotirty to speak of things in heaven as He had already been there

"Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"

To make it "if not" at this point is a stretch-

And as now entrance into heaven is on condition the Son of Man has descended upon you "like a dove" which at the time of Enoch Moses and Eliyah He had/did not being Son of Man only from His earthly birth


Paul writes that there are multiple "heavens" in 2 Cor 12:2 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven" (ouranos).



Sadduccees didn't believe in resurrections...odd they would dismiss Enoch Moses Eliyah
Click to expand...

Suit yourself but I gave you the literal and original sense of the phrase, "if not", and what if it has already been rendered erroneously in most English translations? All I did was try to show you the correct way to understand it according to the overall understanding found in the writings. If you prefer the adulterated versions found in your favorite translations that is your choice. However those renderings do not comply with the overall scripture record; for Moses appeared in glory at the Transfiguration, in the holy mountain, in the Land. Think about that for a moment: how is it that Moses is in the promised Land at that time? How is it that he appears in glory before the crucifixion and resurrection of the Master? It can only be that the Son of Man had descended to Moses and dwelt with him, (the Word of the Father, by which Moses also wrote down the Torah). Therefore Moses had indeed ascended, before the resurrection of Messiah, and that is why I quoted the Proverbs passage. The entire modern Christian paradigm concerning resurrection is therefore entirely flawed and erroneous. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and yes, Moses, all LIVED, and that is well before the resurrection of Messiah.
 
C

clefty

New member
daqq said:
Suit yourself but I gave you the literal and original sense of the phrase, "if not", and what if it has already been rendered erroneously in most English translations? All I did was try to show you the correct way to understand it according to the overall understanding found in the writings. If you prefer the adulterated versions found in your favorite translations that is your choice. However those renderings do not comply with the overall scripture record; for Moses appeared in glory at the Transfiguration, in the holy mountain, in the Land. Think about that for a moment: how is it that Moses is in the promised Land at that time? How is it that he appears in glory before the crucifixion and resurrection of the Master? It can only be that the Son of Man had descended to Moses and dwelt with him, (the Word of the Father, by which Moses also wrote down the Torah). Therefore Moses had indeed ascended, before the resurrection of Messiah, and that is why I quoted the Proverbs passage. The entire modern Christian paradigm concerning resurrection is therefore entirely flawed and erroneous. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and yes, Moses, all LIVED, and that is well before the resurrection of Messiah.
Click to expand...

Or maybe when He commanded them, “Tell no one the vision, until the Son of man is raised from the dead.” He actually meant vision. He didnt say "Tell no one what you witnessed" or "what occured here" but "the vision"

Just like Peter's other vision of the unclean animals...another vision many misinterpret.
 
CherubRam

CherubRam

New member
Attention: Christ (Yahshua) is the only person who came in the flesh (To live here) and returned.

Enoch, Moses, and Elijah, did not RETURN in the flesh. Moses and Elijah came in their immortal bodies to visit.
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
clefty said:
Or maybe when He commanded them, “Tell no one the vision, until the Son of man is raised from the dead.” He actually meant vision. He didnt say "Tell no one what you witnessed" or "what occured here" but "the vision"

Just like Peter's other vision of the unclean animals...another vision many misinterpret.
Click to expand...

I do entirely agree with you in that, but even so, the vision is for teaching and for doctrine, and the fact is that the vision reveals Moses in glory, in the Land, and it is before the resurrection of Messiah. The fact is also that the Master teaches in the Gospel accounts that, even before he went to the cross, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob do live, and therefore Elohim is not Elohim of the dead but Elohim of the living. This clearly means that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not dead when he said those things, even at the burning bush according to the contexts in which those statements are found, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were already living. That is to say, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were already living at the time of the burning bush, for that is the teaching of the Master in the Gospel accounts.
 
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