Does Matthew 28:19 disprove the Trinity more than any other verse?

[SimpleMan77]

Matthew 28:19 is trumpeted by Trinitarians as a verse that proves the Trinity? Could it be the opposite - that it actually is the most anti-Trinitarian verse in the Bible?

Fact: Jesus said to baptize in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Fact: The Apostles baptized only in the name of Jesus (all of them, including Paul).

There are only 2 ways to understand this - either the Apostles disobeyed Jesus or they obeyed Him.

If they disobeyed Him, the validity of the Bible is damaged beyond repair. How can we trust anything that was said or done in it?

If they obeyed Him, that means that the name "Jesus" is the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Is it possible that the 12 Apostles, who had been with Jesus for around 20,000 waking hours each, had been trained by Jesus as to exactly what He meant? The 4 Gospels take up around 115 pages in my Bible, yet people want to think they know more about what Jesus meant from reading what takes less than a day to read, than the men knew who Jesus personally trained for years for that purpose. These men chose death rather than disobedience, so there is absolutely no doubt that they did exactly what He instructed. They baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. That name is Jesus.

This is what I'm absolutely sure of, but I know others feel differently. Why, in your mind, does Matthew 28:19 prove or disprove the Trinity?


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[beameup]

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing them in the name of the
Father and the
Son and the
Holy Spirit
Matthew 28:19

 

[Lighthouse]

Oneness?

 

[SimpleMan77]

Oneness?

The question is there for anyone to answer regardless of their particular bent.

If the ONE name of Jesus isn't the name of Father, the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Ghost, why did all Christianity baptize that way for the entirety of the New Testament?

Did they misunderstand or deliberately disobey Jesus? I say they obeyed Him fully.

I believe Christians should have a clear answer on this, because if they misunderstood Jesus on this, and ended up disobeying Him, they may have done that with the whole New Testament.

Paul is included in this because he baptized in Jesus' name also.


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[Catholic Crusader]

God is Trinity. That is a fact. To deny that fact is to deny WHO God is.

1) The Bible says there is only one God (Mark 12:29, 1 Cor. 8:4–6, Jas. 2:19).

However:
A) The Bible says that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9)
B) The Bible says the Holy Spirit is God (cf. Acts 5:3–4, 28:25–28; 1 Cor. 2:10–13)
C) And we all know the Father is God

How do we reconcile all of this? By saying that all three person exist as one being.
One being need not equate to one person. A cat or a dog is one being and NO persons. A bird or a fish is one being and NO persons. A human is one being and ONE person. God is one being and THREE persons. "Being" refers to what we are. "Person" refers to who we are. God, the Bible states, is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. WHO he is is three persons. WHAT he is is one God.

I said that the Bible says Jesus is God. Christ’s divinity is shown over and over again in the New Testament. For example, in John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: ** Kurios mou kai ** Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]**, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

 

[jamie]

The Holy Spirit is the power by which the Father made a baby.

Who's your daddy?

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 1:20 ...for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.​

In John 4:10 Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink’ you would have asked Him and He would have given you living water."

In John 7:38 Jesus said, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."

So what is this living water?

John explains, "But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

We know the Holy Spirit is not a single person else that person would have been Jesus' father and we know that is not the case.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The Holy Spirit is the power by which the Father made a baby.........

Wow. Now there's some theological brainpower. :nono:

 

[jamie]

Wow. Now there's some theological brainpower. :nono:

And we are one with the Son and the Father and we are the personification of the Holy Spirit. If you want the Holy Spirit to be manifest in the world today ... we're it.

The trinity? Father, Son, bride.

 

[Lilstu]

You are correct that there are 7 Baptisms in the NT and they never use the Trinity formula.

There is evidence that Matthew 28:19 is spurious and was a later edit into the text.

 

[Lighthouse]

The question is there for anyone to answer regardless of their particular bent.

If the ONE name of Jesus isn't the name of Father, the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Ghost, why did all Christianity baptize that way for the entirety of the New Testament?

Did they misunderstand or deliberately disobey Jesus? I say they obeyed Him fully.

I believe Christians should have a clear answer on this, because if they misunderstood Jesus on this, and ended up disobeying Him, they may have done that with the whole New Testament.

Paul is included in this because he baptized in Jesus' name also.

I was asking if that's what you believe.

 

[Gurucam]

Matthew 28:19 is trumpeted by Trinitarians as a verse that proves the Trinity? Could it be the opposite - that it actually is the most anti-Trinitarian verse in the Bible?

Fact: Jesus said to baptize in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Fact: The Apostles baptized only in the name of Jesus (all of them, including Paul).

There are only 2 ways to understand this - either the Apostles disobeyed Jesus or they obeyed Him.

If they disobeyed Him, the validity of the Bible is damaged beyond repair. How can we trust anything that was said or done in it?

If they obeyed Him, that means that the name "Jesus" is the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Is it possible that the 12 Apostles, who had been with Jesus for around 20,000 waking hours each, had been trained by Jesus as to exactly what He meant? The 4 Gospels take up around 115 pages in my Bible, yet people want to think they know more about what Jesus meant from reading what takes less than a day to read, than the men knew who Jesus personally trained for years for that purpose. These men chose death rather than disobedience, so there is absolutely no doubt that they did exactly what He instructed. They baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. That name is Jesus.

This is what I'm absolutely sure of, but I know others feel differently. Why, in your mind, does Matthew 28:19 prove or disprove the Trinity?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Only the eleven disciples got that instruction.

Matthew: 28 KJV N.T.
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

At all events, Paul (who was not one of the twelve disciples) got other instructions directly from Jesus. Paul communed with Jesus got his instruction from Jesus, after Jesus had long been crucified and risen to spirit heaven, clad only in His Spiritual body. In this format Jesus is the Spirit, 'not seen' and eternal, Son of God and the Lord from heaven.

Only Paul knew and communed with, the Spirit, 'not seen' and eternal, Son of God, Jesus who is the Lord from heaven.

Only Paul got his commission from the Spirit, 'not seen' and eternal, Son of God, Jesus who is the Lord from heaven.

All others (including the disciples) knew only the physical, 'seen' and temporal son of man Jesus who was not the lord. The twelve disciples and all others (except Paul) knew only the Jesus of earth, who was earthly and not the Lord. And they got their commission from the earthly Jesus who was not the Lord.

Galatians: 1 KJV N.T.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians: 15 KJV N.T.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
44 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Do not compare the physical, 'seen' and temporal, son of man Jesus to God or the Holy Spirit. They are in no way equal. The physical, 'seen' and temporal, son of man Jesus was just a man. In this flesh format, Jesus is not entitle to all things due to the Holy Spirit.

Matthews: 12 KJV N.T.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The Spirit, 'not seen' and eternal, Son of God Jesus is different. He is the pure Son of the Holy Spirit and the Lord. In this spirit only format Jesus is entitled to all things that is due to the Holy Spirit.

If one wants to follow the Lord Jesus (as opposed to following the earth Jesus, who is not the Lord), one must be able to reach and commune with the Spirit Jesus through one's own heart or spirit and receive personalized information and guidance direct from the Spirit Jesus who is the Lord from heaven . . . . in the same way that Paul did it and not as the disciples did it.

Knowing the Lord Jesus does not come from reading and studying scriptures. One will only know about Jesus from reading and hearing scriptures.

The kingdom of heaven is anchored in this power (to commune, live, with the Spirit Jesus) which Paul had and not in words (written in scriptures):

1 Corinthians: 4 KJV N.T.
20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

 

[Gurucam]

continued from post 11, above

SimpleMan77,

Fact is the physical, 'seen' and temporal, son of man, Jesus could not and did not bring All Truth. He has to leave by crucifixion and rising to heaven so that the Spirit of Truth who is literally the Spirit, 'not seen' and eternal, Son of God, Lord Jesus can bring All Truth:

John: 16 KJV N.T.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This means that the disciples did not get All Truth because they knew only the physical, 'seen' and temporal, son of man, Jesus.

Only Paul got All Truth because only Paul communed with the Spirit of Truth who is literally the Spirit, 'not seen' and eternal, Son of God, Lord Jesus.

Paul's first contact and communion with the the Spirit of Truth who is literally the Spirit, 'not seen' and eternal, Son of God, Lord Jesus was on the road to Damascus.

The disciples and all others stayed stuck on the physical, 'seen' and temporal, son of man Jesus. Up to the very last, they continue to seek physical validation and physical signs' for events and things that were purely 'not seen' and spiritual. They were 'spiritually dead' (also called 'the dead'). They did not move-up to know and commune with, the 'not seen' and eternal, Spirit of Truth who is literally the Spirit, 'not seen' and eternal, Son of God, Lord Jesus.

None other than Paul looked to things that are 'not seen' and eternal. All except Paul continue to look to things that are 'seen' and temporal:

2 Corinthians: 4
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The disciples are no 'biggies'. Only Paul is a 'biggie'. Paul was a man after the very heart of Jesus.

In fact Paul is the only example of a Christian from among all people mentioned in the Holy KJV N.T.. Paul is our only example of a Christian in the Holy KJV N.T.

 

[Lilstu]

Only the eleven disciples got that instruction.

Matthew: 28 KJV N.T.
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

At all events, Paul (who was not one of the twelve disciples) got other instructions directly from Jesus. Paul communed with Jesus got his instruction from Jesus, after Jesus had long been crucified and risen to spirit heaven, clad only in His Spiritual body. In this format Jesus is the Spirit, 'not seen' and eternal, Son of God and the Lord from heaven.

Only Paul knew and communed with, the Spirit, 'not seen' and eternal, Son of God, Jesus who is the Lord from heaven.

Only Paul got his commission from the Spirit, 'not seen' and eternal, Son of God, Jesus who is the Lord from heaven.

All others (including the disciples) knew only the physical, 'seen' and temporal son of man Jesus who was not the lord. The twelve disciples and all others (except Paul) knew only the Jesus of earth, who was earthly and not the Lord. And they got their commission from the earthly Jesus who was not the Lord.

Galatians: 1 KJV N.T.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians: 15 KJV N.T.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
44 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Do not compare the physical, 'seen' and temporal, son of man Jesus to God or the Holy Spirit. They are in no way equal. The physical, 'seen' and temporal, son of man Jesus was just a man. In this flesh format, Jesus is not entitle to all things due to the Holy Spirit.

Matthews: 12 KJV N.T.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The Spirit, 'not seen' and eternal, Son of God Jesus is different. He is the pure Son of the Holy Spirit and the Lord. In this spirit only format Jesus is entitled to all things that is due to the Holy Spirit.

If one wants to follow the Lord Jesus (as opposed to following the earth Jesus, who is not the Lord), one must be able to reach and commune with the Spirit Jesus through one's own heart or spirit and receive personalized information and guidance direct from the Spirit Jesus who is the Lord from heaven . . . . in the same way that Paul did it and not as the disciples did it.

Knowing the Lord Jesus does not come from reading and studying scriptures. One will only know about Jesus from reading and hearing scriptures.

The kingdom of heaven is anchored in this power (to commune, live, with the Spirit Jesus) which Paul had and not in words (written in scriptures):

1 Corinthians: 4 KJV N.T.
20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

According to Luke and John, Jesus was resurrected with his natural body of flesh and bone which still had the injuries due to crucifixion.

 

[Gurucam]

According to Luke and John, Jesus was resurrected with his natural body of flesh and bone which still had the injuries due to crucifixion.

Where, in what verse of the Holy KJV N.T. was the above confirmed/revealed??

We know that the Holy KJV N.T. confirms:

1 Corinthians: 15 KJV N.T.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Do you have a clear and literal verse (or verses) from the Holy KJV N.T. to support your claim?

Also:

In the Holy KJV N.T. John said that Jesus confirmed that only the Spirit of Truth can and will bring All Truth after he (Jesus) left by crucifixion and rising to heaven:

John: 16 KJV N.T.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The disciples did not have communion with the Spirit of Truth. The Spirit of Truth is the Spirit 'not seen' and eternal Son of God, Jesus who is the Lord. The disciples did not have communion with the Spirit of Truth who is the Spirit 'not seen' and eternal Son of God, Jesus after Jesus' crucifixion and rise to heaven.

Therefore what would the disciples know of 'All Truth'? In fact what would the disciples know about which body Jesus has after His final ascend to heaven? Only Paul knew Jesus, intimately after his crucifixion and final rise to heaven . . . i.e. as the Spirit of Truth who brings All Truth..

Additionally according to Matthew's statement in the Holy KJV N.T.: Clearly the physical, 'seen' and temporal, son of man Jesus was and is not consequential. And this is the only Jesus who the disciples knew and with whom they communed.

In the Holy KJV N.T. Matthew confirmed that: One can blaspheme the physical, 'seen' and temporal, son of man Jesus and one shall be forgiven.

In fact Paul blasphemed both the physical, 'seen' and temporal, son of man Jesus and the church which He established under Peter. Paul was not only forgiven he was rewarded with Jesus Christian/spirit and Spirit based commission.

Matthews: 12 KJV N.T.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Galatians: 2 KJV N.T.
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me (i.e. Paul), as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Paul got all the information and guidance for his commission (i.e. the Gospel of uncircumcision) directly, privately and intuitively from the Spirit of Truth who is the Spirit 'not seen' and eternal Son of God, Lord Jesus:

Galatians: 1 KJV N.T.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Also according to John's reporting: Fact is the physical, 'seen' and temporal, son of man, Jesus could not and did not bring All Truth. The physical Jesus had to leave by crucifixion and rising to heaven so that the Spirit of Truth who is literally the Spirit, 'not seen' and eternal, Son of God, Lord Jesus can come among them and bring All Truth:

John: 16 KJV N.T.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This means that the disciples did not get All Truth because they knew only the physical, 'seen' and temporal, son of man, Jesus. Indeed all their reporting is about the physical 'seen' and temporal, son of man Jesus.

Also in the Holy KJV N.T., John confirmed that Jesus said that: the Spirit of Truth will came after Jesus' crucifixion and rise to heaven and this Spirit will bring All Truth. Therefore All Truth was made available only after Jesus was crucified and rose to heaven and only through a spirit communion with the Spirit of Truth who is the Spirit of Jesus.

Fact is only Paul achieved communion with the Spirit of Jesus/Spirit of Truth after Jesus' crucifixion and rise to heaven. Therefore only Paul could know and tell All Truth. The disciples did not achieve communion with the Spirit of Truth/Spirit of Jesus. Therefore the disciples could not and did not know All Truth.

Fact is, if one is seeking All Truth, one has to ignore the disciples and listen to only Paul. The disciples were not at all, in the same class as Paul.

You are aware that there is a 'son of man' Jesus who was fathered by the Holy Spirit (who provided the spirit body) and 'mothered by Mother Mary (who provided the flesh body). Jesus the son of man was Half flesh and half Spirit. This was the physical, 'seen' and temporal, son of man Jesus.

Also there is a Son of God, Jesus. This is the Spirit only Jesus who is the pure Son of the Holy Spirit. This is the Spirit 'not seen' and eternal Son of God, Jesus, who is the Lord from heaven.

Jesus who went back to the Father had to go back as pure Spirit . . . because God, the Father is a Spirit. Jesus could not carry his fleshy, earthly, Mother Mary's part with Him to be with God, the Father in heaven.

There is no revelation in the Holy KJV N.T. that say that Jesus rose to heaven in a physical body.

However there is a very clear revelation in the Holy KJV N.T. that says that Jesus was raised in a spiritual body.

Is your claim a corruption of truth, Truth and the Holy KJV N.T., all in one?

 

[Lilstu]

Luke 24:39-43King James Version (KJV)

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Jesus had his old flesh and bone body and he says...""it is I myself""
He ate...I don't think spirits eat because they have no flesh to feed.

John 20:27King James Version (KJV)
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Jesus had his old body with the nail holes in his palms and the spear hole in his side from the crucifixion.

 

[Gurucam]

Lilstu,

None of those verses, which you quoted, say that Jesus rose to heaven in a physical body. You do know what happens when one 'assume'?

Jesus was also seen rising in his physical body, to a cloud beyond the sight of some followers. Are you not also going to assume and project that that also meant that Jesus rose to heaven in his physical body?

Those foolish ('spiritually dead') people (including the disciples) needed physical signs for spiritual events. They were simply 'the dead', i.e. 'spiritually dead'.

So, to appease and help them to understand, Jesus did miracles. He rose to a cloud, in a physical body, beyond their sight to demonstrate the spiritual event of rising to heaven. Jesus also materialize a physical body, according to the demands of His still spiritually dead disciples to appease and show them, on their carnal terms, that he was not dead. Jesus was not happy with them. They were a sad disappointment:

Fact is, they remained a part of an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after signs. They were faithless and none believing people. Believers and people of faith do not seeketh after signs. Believers and people of faith believe and accept Jesus words:

Matthew: 12 KJV N.T.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

John: 20 KJV N.T.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The disciples were not blessed because even at the very end, they did not actualized their capacity to look to things that are 'not seen' and eternal. They continue to need physical validation (which are described as signs), for things that are 'not seen' and eternal.

We know that the Holy KJV N.T. confirms:

1 Corinthians: 15 KJV N.T.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The above is a very clear and literal revelation from the Holy KJV N.T. that say that Jesus rose to heaven clad only in his spiritual body.

Do you have an equally clear and literal verse (or verses) from the Holy KJV N.T. to support your claim, that Jesus rose to heaven in a physical body?

. . . or are you simply corrupting the Holy KJV N.T. to support your own ideas?

The disciples were spiritually dead right up to end and even after Jesus rose to heaven, the final time. Their hearts/spirit were 'waxed gross'. They were not given by God to 'see', detect and know spiritual ('not seen') things. This is why only Paul was able to have live communion with the 'not seen' Spirit of Truth/Spirit of Jesus and get All Truth.

Wake up to the truth that from among all people who followed Jesus, only Paul made it to be a Christian.

Also wake up to the truth that if one genuinely wants to be Christian one must be spiritually aware and spiritually actualized like Paul and not at all ('spiritually dead') like any and all the disciples.

Peter's commission was never Jesus' Christian commission. Peter's commission anchored Jesus Satanic church. Jesus established a church under Satan. Jesus established a church where 'the dead' were to be sent to Satan/Peter, so that their spirits might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. To save a person's spirit is to awaken one to one's own heart/spirit. This is described as being 'converted' in the Holy KJV N.T.

The above defined Peter's Jesus given work. One cannot be and does not become a Christian in Peter's church. At best one can become spiritually aware. A spiritually aware person must still be healed by Jesus. This is done only under Paul's spirit and Spirit based commission.

The following defined Peter's commission and church as given by Jesus. It is Jesus' Satanic commission/church where Jesus expected the dead to be sent so their spirits might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus:

1 Corinthians: 5 King James Version (KJV)
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Paul's commission is totally different. Paul's commission is for people whose spirit are already save. That is they are already aware of/awakened to, their own hearts/spirits. They have actualized their capacity to serve spirit/love and so become Christians.

Only Paul's commission anchored Jesus' Christian commission which in anchored on live communion with and being led by, the Spirit of Jesus/Spirit of Truth through one's own heart/spirit, even if one has to transgress the ten commandments. This is described as serving spirit/love which is the Christian way of life. This is also:

Romans: 8 KJV N.T.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Graduates from Peter's church were supposed to be 'converted' people. Peter's church was supposed to take spiritually dead people (also called 'the dead') and convert them to spiritually awaken/spiritually aware people. This as far as Peter was appointed by Jesus to do. This is as far as Peter church could take them.

Then they had to move into Paul's commission to be healed by Jesus. To be healed by Jesus 'converted' people have to totally abandon and drop Peter's ideas and his church. And they have to totally embrace Paul's commission wich is totally 'not seen'. Then they become Christians.

 

[Lilstu]

Lilstu,

None of those say that Jesus rose to heaven in a physical body. You do know what happens when one 'assume'?

Jesus was also seen rising in his physical body, to a cloud beyond the sight of some followers. Are you not also going to assume and project that that also meant that Jesus rose to heaven in his physical body?

Those foolish ('spiritually dead') people need physical signs for a spiritual event. So Jesus did miracles. He rose to cloud, in a physical body, beyond their sight to demonstrate a the spiritual event of rising to heaven. Jesus also materialize a physical body, according to the request of His still spiritually dead disciples to appease them that he was not dead, on their carnal terms. Jesus was not happy with them:

Fact is, only evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign. People of faith do not seeketh after signs:

Matthew: 12 KJV N.T.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

John: 20 KJV N.T.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The disciples were not blessed because even at the very end, they did not actualized their capacity to look to things that are 'not seen' and eternal. They continue to need physical validation which are described as signs.

We know that the Holy KJV N.T. confirms:

1 Corinthians: 15 KJV N.T.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Do you have a clear and literal verse (or verses) from the Holy KJV N.T. to support your claim, that Jesus rose to heaven in a physical body?

So based on what you wrote can I assume you believe Jesus when up into the clouds with a physical body and soon as he was out of sight he discarded the body and went to Heaven as a spirit?
If so...that assumes facts not in evidence.

 

[Lilstu]

Acts 1:11 King James Version (KJV)
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

They saw a physical Jesus go up into heaven.....and in like manner they shall see him return in his physical body.

 

[Gurucam]

So based on what you wrote can I assume you believe Jesus when up into the clouds with a physical body and soon as he was out of sight he discarded the body and went to Heaven as a spirit?
If so...that assumes facts not in evidence.

To avoid assumptions simply accept the revelation (as is), Jesus simply rose to a cloud in his physical body.

Then simply accept the following other revelation, as is:

1 Corinthians: 15 KJV N.T.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The first speaks about a cloud. The second speak about heaven . . . no assumptions required. Simply accept the revelations for what they say.

 

[Gurucam]

Acts 1:11 King James Version (KJV)
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

They saw a physical Jesus go up into heaven.....and in like manner they shall see him return in his physical body.

Again you are assuming.

Fact is, according to the Holy KJV N.T., all that Peter and those others saw (and confessed to seeing) was Jesus rising up to a cloud, beyond their sight, in a physical body.

The follow revelation from the Holy KJV N.T., confirmed, pointedly how Jesus rose to heaven:

1 Corinthians: 15 KJV N.T.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Jesus rose to heaven in a Spirit body and he has long returned to earth in His Spirit form, as the Spirit of Truth. This was the second coming of Jesus. And in His Spirit only form, Jesus is the Lord from heaven. He is operating from spirit heaven.

The first coming of Jesus was simply a (physical) sign for the Spirit Jesus. Abraham's generation was promised the Spirit of Jesus, not the physical Jesus. Jesus came in the flesh because that nation was evil, faithless and adulterous:

Jesus confirmed that there will be no further signs (i.e. no further physical appearance of Him):

Matthew: 12 KJV N.T.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Jesus returned only in His Spirit, as the Spirit of Truth.

The billion strong traditional Christians (who share your belief) simply missed the straight gate and narrow way that leadeth onto life eternal and heaven. You guys simply refused to look to things that are 'not seen' and eternal (i.e. the physical Jesus). You continue to look to things that are 'seen' and temporal (i.e. the Spirit Jesus):

2 Corinthians: 4 KJV N.T.
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Matthew: 7 King James Version (KJV)
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Jesus did confirm:

John: 16 KJV N.T.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Did you accept the above revelation. Did you search the Holy KJV N.T. to find out (precisely from the Holy KJV N.T.) who is the Spirit of Truth?

Fact is the Spirit of Truth is the Spirit of Jesus. Because Jesus is the Truth.

John: 14 King James Version (KJV)
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The Spirit of Jesus/Spirit of Truth is how Jesus returned the second time. And Jesus returned in his Spirit form immediate after the physical Jesus was crucified and rose to heaven.

The Spirit of Truth who brings All Truth to humans cannot be the Holy Spirit. Because no one comes onto God (the Holy Spirit) without going through Jesus.