Slice it, dice it any way you want.
Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
I am a Trinitarian. BUT, I do not feel competent to judge the non-Trinitarian believers.
God, in infinite mercy and love is taking care of business.
I said
I have never seen how any one could believe in the trinity. We are suppose to bring every thought in our minds to the obedience of The new testament. And the only weapons we are to use is the verses. We are not suppose to even think beyond what is written, or add one thing to the verses or take one thing away from the verses.
Now trinity is not even written in scripture. It takes the imagination to even think about the trinity. We are suppose to get rid of our imagination.
2 Cor 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
(NKJ)
1 Cor 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
(NKJ)
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(NKJ)
Jesus even said we have the very same God and very same Father that He has. Jesus even said the Father is the only true God.
John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)
John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)
Paul said there is only one God the Father. All that every verse YOU REJECT. And would have to reject in order to believe in your trinity doctrine.
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)
I think satan is using you Trinitarians to glorify himself. And your letting him.
The only three in one trinity in the whole bible is here. The dragon, devil, and satan.
Rev 12:9
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(NKJ)
You couldn't accept the Word the Way God presented it. so God sent you strong delusions.
II Th 2:10-12
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(NKJ)
I have never seen how any one could believe in the trinity. We are suppose to bring every thought in our minds to the obedience of The new testament. And the only weapons we are to use is the verses. We are not suppose to even think beyond what is written, or add one thing to the verses or take one thing away from the verses.
Now trinity is not even written in scripture. It takes the imagination to even think about the trinity. We are suppose to get rid of our imagination.
2 Cor 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
(NKJ)
1 Cor 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
(NKJ)
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(NKJ)
Jesus even said we have the very same God and very same Father that He has. Jesus even said the Father is the only true God.
John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)
John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)
Paul said there is only one God the Father. All that every verse YOU REJECT. And would have to reject in order to believe in your trinity doctrine.
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)
I think satan is using you Trinitarians to glorify himself. And your letting him.
The only three in one trinity in the whole bible is here. The dragon, devil, and satan.
Rev 12:9
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(NKJ)
You couldn't accept the Word the Way God presented it. so God sent you strong delusions.
II Th 2:10-12
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(NKJ)
I'm confidant of one thing; You're ALWAYS wrong!
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
That there are Three Persons all God in scripture, this very clear, I don't know what sort of Christian denies clear scripture. Note that it's a trait of some cults to deny the Trinity, also, which is very bad, heretical company for any such "Christians" to be keeping.
People who believe false doctrines have a real spiritual problem, no doubt. The Holy Spirit should be leading a real Christian into all truth.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
People who have the most basic Christian principles wrong really aren't worth reading. They have no spiritual vision, and you can trust nothing they say.
No one will be saved that does not believe that Jesus has atoned for their sins. A man that is born after Adam cannot atone for the sins of another man and the sins of the world.
Jesus is the second person of the Godhead. He came to this earth through through the virgin Mary. He embraced our humanity, perfected it and took it to heaven.
"He who knew no sin, became sin for us" 2 Corinthians 5:21.
Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves.
So is your answer yea or nay?
Any believer who feels (or is made to) acknowledge the Trinity theology for "membership" in the faith probably will not change his or her mind regarding the term.
For me the Trinity is a theological meaning that was devised long after Jesus died. It serves as a handy "short cut" for summing up what Jesus' later followers thought about his life and teachings and how the presence of God is to be viewed by later followers.
I tend to focus less on a "belief-based" Christianity and more on an "action-based" Christianity.
In my view, such theological statements as "Trinity," "Son of God," "born of a virgin," etc. are still important things to remember but since they are elevated and exalted TITLES of Jesus there are less important for me than his actual teachings found in his parables.
Only by endeavoring to find out what verses in the New Testament meant to their original authors helps me make the most sense of the life, death and teachings of Jesus.
Seeing things in the original, ancient context of the times is more important than the theological meanings applied to his life after his death.
I realize such a hermeneutics might come across as disruptive and even threatening to traditional believers. Maybe if those entrusted to speak to us from the pulpit should take Jesus' actual teachings more seriously than just requiring our giving our assent to a list of ancient dogmas and theological overlays.
For me the Trinity is a theological meaning that was devised long after Jesus died. It serves as a handy "short cut" for summing up what Jesus' later followers thought about his life and teachings and how the presence of God is to be viewed by later followers.
I tend to focus less on a "belief-based" Christianity and more on an "action-based" Christianity.
In my view, such theological statements as "Trinity," "Son of God," "born of a virgin," etc. are still important things to remember but since they are elevated and exalted TITLES of Jesus there are less important for me than his actual teachings found in his parables.
Only by endeavoring to find out what verses in the New Testament meant to their original authors helps me make the most sense of the life, death and teachings of Jesus.
Seeing things in the original, ancient context of the times is more important than the theological meanings applied to his life after his death.
I realize such a hermeneutics might come across as disruptive and even threatening to traditional believers. Maybe if those entrusted to speak to us from the pulpit should take Jesus' actual teachings more seriously than just requiring our giving our assent to a list of ancient dogmas and theological overlays.
this is decent Christian comment.
Only God can save.
I think somebody could be saved not understanding that Jesus Christ is God, but I cannot see how after being saved they would not have come to a proper knowledge of who He is.....
But it seems very unlikely too that anybody would really believe He is able to save if He were only a man...why would somebody trust a man who lived 2, 000 years ago to save them?
I think somebody could be saved not understanding that Jesus Christ is God, but I cannot see how after being saved they would not have come to a proper knowledge of who He is.....
But it seems very unlikely too that anybody would really believe He is able to save if He were only a man...why would somebody trust a man who lived 2, 000 years ago to save them?
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
Agree completely, that we learn the faith better in our walk in the Spirit. But given a Christian of any maturity and of the Spirit could deny simple scripture truths, that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God, clearly so in scripture: there is definitely something wrong there.
Such a person had better examine their salvation, because, for some reason, it appears they don't have a spiritual understanding of even God's nature, spiritual knowledge of His very Person. I would add this usually involves a heretical diminution of the deity of the Lord Jesus, the very Word of God from eternity, who is also Creator and God who communed with man of the Old Testament. This they can't or refuse to see.
What is alarming is neither do the unsaved understand these things. People can even quote a Bible they don't really understand all day long. You see this all the time on message boards, too often somebody posting streams of out of context scripture verses that don't even support a point they're trying to make. This is spiritual blindness, a symptom of one without the Holy Spirit, a fake Christian.
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CherubRam
New member
Non-Trinitarians believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They believe Yahwah is the Father and only true God, they believe the Son is the Messiah from Heaven, they believe Holy Spirit is a name title for Yahwah our Holy Father.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:
"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."
CherubRam
New member
There have been Pagan trinities around since the day of Abraham, and that is what made the monotheism faith of Abraham unique. The Pagan trinities were also three persons revealed in one god.
CherubRam
New member
Those involved in Philosophy were the Gnostics, they introduced the Sunday Sabbath, Trinitarianism, Hell, Messiah worship, authority of the Pope; the titles, Father, Lord, Rabbi, Teacher, Master.
There were two different groups of Gnostic's during the first centuries AD.
The first group of Gnostic's were opposed to Christianity.
The other group of Gnostic's were not opposed, and joined Pagan notions to Christianity.
The Gnostic Christians believed in Sunday Sabbath, authority of the Pope, and Trinitarianism, while the Judaizing Christians were opposed to such things as Catholicism [Universalism.]
1 Tim 6:20
"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called."
The "oppositions of science falsely so called." is the opposition to Jewish and Pagan Gnosticism.
Science is "gnosis" in the Greek.
Philosophy and Gnosticism is the "profane and vain babblings" the Congregations had to combat.
Albert Pike, a high prophet of Freemasonry, spoke on the origin of Trinitarianism. In his secret book "Morals and Dogma" he says of the Kabbalist "Jews were the direct precursors of Gnosticism," their Kabbalist doctrine is derived from their captivity while in Babylon.
Philo of Alexandria was a Jew who played a key role in the development of the Trinitarian theory. Pike says, he was a Kabbalist "a initiate of the mysteries."
Philo introduced the idea of a trinity to the Hellenistic Jews of Alexandria.
Philo did not equate the three members of his trinity. He wrote that “the middle person of the three,” was Yahweh, the Father of the Universe, who is uncreated and unbegotten. God, the Father of the Universe was accompanied by two “body-guards”: the creative power and the royal power. God being greater than them. These ideas of Philo made a great impact on Christianity.
Trinity
In the fourth-century, Marcellus of Ancyra declared that the idea of the Godhead existing as three hypostases came from Plato, through the teachings of Valentinus. Valentinus is quoted as teaching that God is three, three prosopa (persons) called the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:
These men also taught three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. It was believed he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but he was discovered to have taken this from Hermes and Plato.
Valentinus (also spelled Valentinius) (c.100 - c.160) was known as a early Christian Gnostic Theologian.
It should be noted that Nag Hammadi library Sethian text such as Trimorphic Protennoia identify Gnosticism as also professing Father, Son and feminine wisdom Sophia or as Professor John D Turner denotes, God the Father, Sophia the Mother, and Logos the Son.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:
"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."
Cruciform
New member
Therefore, you would qualify as one who knowingly denies and rejects the Trinity, and who therefore cannot be considered a "Christian" (Post #3).
Cruciform
New member
No there haven't. There have been tritheisms, not trinities. The doctrine of the Trinity is absolutely unique to the Christian faith.