Do You Have Saving Faith?

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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
The word "Faith" appears in the New Testament 251 times, but only twice in the Old Testament, which was a surprise to me. The words "Faithful" or "Faithfully" appear in the Old Testament 35 times. According to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible the word "Faith" #G4102 means "Reliance upon Christ for salvation". There are other meanings for the word faith, but this is the main meaning. The word "Faith" is also closely related to the words "Believe" or "Belief".

Saving faith is NOT faith in a doctrine or a religion. Calvinist have faith that they have been predestinated to salvation. Catholics have faith in the Catholic church. This kind of faith does not save because it is not faith in Christ and his Gospel. Remember, the word "Faith" means... "Reliance upon Christ for Salvation". Faith in a doctrine or a religion is NOT faith or reliance upon Jesus Christ for salvation. Many have faith that Jesus is the Christ or the Son of God, but they do not have faith that Jesus Christ can save them from their sins. They do not have saving faith.

I have found that those Christians that have saving faith do not embrace a religion. Perhaps there is no room in their faith for a religion. In the commandments God said, "Thou shalt not have any other God's before me" When you mix faith with a religion what you wind up with is another God. This is why Paul quoted Isaiah and said,

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you and will be a Father unto you, and you shall be my sons and Daughters, saith the Lord almighty" 2 Corinthians 6:17, 18.

If you have faith in Christ you will not need a religion like Calvinism or Catholicism. Those that have faith in Christ and his Gospel are resting in Christ and his Gospel to save them. They have entered into his rest.

"For he that has entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works (religion) as God did from his" Hebrews 4:10.

Religion is nothing more than a diversion away from Christ and his Gospel and could mean the difference between salvation and damnation. It is very apparent that religion is not of faith. Jesus said, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, didn't we." Matthew 7:21-23. This is a group of people that were trusting in their religion to save them. They should have been saying, "Lord, Lord, didn't you". They thought that it was all about them and their religion.
 
Derf

Derf

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Your right. The Gospel is the only doctrine out of the many doctrines that we are called to have faith in.
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Are you sure? Was "the Gospel" what Abraham believed such that righteousness was accounted to him? If so, then how can you make a distinction between "the Gospel" and any other promise (or threat) of God. If not, how could it have been the cornerstone act of faith for Paul and James to use?

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R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Derf said:
Are you sure? Was "the Gospel" what Abraham believed such that righteousness was accounted to him? If so, then how can you make a distinction between "the Gospel" and any other promise (or threat) of God. If not, how could it have been the cornerstone act of faith for Paul and James to use?

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Abraham was justified by faith because he believed God's promise of a savior. In the Old Testament and the New Testament faith counts for righteousness. All through the Old Testament there is a thread which was the promise of a savior. Faith in that promise justified and counted for righteousness. They looked forward to God's promise of a savior. We look back, all are justified by faith. Only faith in God's promise of a savior justified and counted for righteousness.
 
Derf

Derf

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Abraham was justified by faith because he believed God's promise of a savior. In the Old Testament and the New Testament faith counts for righteousness. All through the Old Testament there is a thread which was the promise of a savior. Faith in that promise justified and counted for righteousness. They looked forward to God's promise of a savior. We look back, all are justified by faith. Only faith in God's promise of a savior justified and counted for righteousness.
Click to expand...

Look at Gen 15 again.

[Gen 15:4-6 KJV] 4 And, behold, the word of the LORD [came] unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

There's no indication that Abraham was believing God's promise of a savior at the time when his faith was counted for righteousness. There's plenty of indication that Abraham believed God's promise of descendants too numerous to count. We don't want to add to scripture.

Paul explains it the same:
[Rom 4:18, 21 KJV] 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. ... 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

God only holds us accountable for what He has told us, not what is not yet revealed. Abraham, as far as we know, only had the promises given to Adam and Eve, Noah, maybe Enoch, and himself. There's plenty of material there, but only a little that resembles the Gospel as we know it.

God wanted a man that would believe Him/fear Him enough to desire to carry out His will--whatever that will happened to be at the time--and believe that God would fulfill His promise--whatever that promise happened to be.

Yes, we can look back with 20/20 hindsight, perhaps, and see what God was doing. Abraham just had to believe what he was told.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
The word "Faith" appears in the New Testament 251 times, but only twice in the Old Testament, which was a surprise to me. The words "Faithful" or "Faithfully" appear in the Old Testament 35 times. According to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible the word "Faith" #G4102 means "Reliance upon Christ for salvation". There are other meanings for the word faith, but this is the main meaning. The word "Faith" is also closely related to the words "Believe" or "Belief".

Saving faith is NOT faith in a doctrine or a religion. Calvinist have faith that they have been predestinated to salvation. Catholics have faith in the Catholic church. This kind of faith does not save because it is not faith in Christ and his Gospel. Remember, the word "Faith" means... "Reliance upon Christ for Salvation". Faith in a doctrine or a religion is NOT faith or reliance upon Jesus Christ for salvation. Many have faith that Jesus is the Christ or the Son of God, but they do not have faith that Jesus Christ can save them from their sins. They do not have saving faith.

I have found that those Christians that have saving faith do not embrace a religion. Perhaps there is no room in their faith for a religion. In the commandments God said, "Thou shalt not have any other God's before me" When you mix faith with a religion what you wind up with is another God. This is why Paul quoted Isaiah and said,

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you and will be a Father unto you, and you shall be my sons and Daughters, saith the Lord almighty" 2 Corinthians 6:17, 18.

If you have faith in Christ you will not need a religion like Calvinism or Catholicism. Those that have faith in Christ and his Gospel are resting in Christ and his Gospel to save them. They have entered into his rest.

"For he that has entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works (religion) as God did from his" Hebrews 4:10.

Religion is nothing more than a diversion away from Christ and his Gospel and could mean the difference between salvation and damnation. It is very apparent that religion is not of faith. Jesus said, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, didn't we." Matthew 7:21-23. This is a group of people that were trusting in their religion to save them. They should have been saying, "Lord, Lord, didn't you". They thought that it was all about them and their religion.
Click to expand...

You lack Faith in Christ, you believe the sinners He died for are still lost !
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Derf said:
Look at Gen 15 again.

[Gen 15:4-6 KJV] 4 And, behold, the word of the LORD [came] unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

There's no indication that Abraham was believing God's promise of a savior at the time when his faith was counted for righteousness. There's plenty of indication that Abraham believed God's promise of descendants too numerous to count. We don't want to add to scripture.

Paul explains it the same:
[Rom 4:18, 21 KJV] 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. ... 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

God only holds us accountable for what He has told us, not what is not yet revealed. Abraham, as far as we know, only had the promises given to Adam and Eve, Noah, maybe Enoch, and himself. There's plenty of material there, but only a little that resembles the Gospel as we know it.

God wanted a man that would believe Him/fear Him enough to desire to carry out His will--whatever that will happened to be at the time--and believe that God would fulfill His promise--whatever that promise happened to be.

Yes, we can look back with 20/20 hindsight, perhaps, and see what God was doing. Abraham just had to believe what he was told.
Click to expand...

Abraham knew about Jesus Christ and his Gospel, John 8:56.

Everyone is without an excuse, Romans 1:20.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Robert Pate said:
Abraham was justified by faith because he believed God's promise of a savior. In the Old Testament and the New Testament faith counts for righteousness. All through the Old Testament there is a thread which was the promise of a savior. Faith in that promise justified and counted for righteousness. They looked forward to God's promise of a savior. We look back, all are justified by faith. Only faith in God's promise of a savior justified and counted for righteousness.
Click to expand...

Correct. No one has ever been saved by keeping the law, ever. The law was merely for structure and discipline in a hostile world. Offering sacrifice before Christ was an act of faith in a savior to come.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Epoisses said:
Correct. No one has ever been saved by keeping the law, ever. The law was merely for structure and discipline in a hostile world. Offering sacrifice before Christ was an act of faith in a savior to come.
Click to expand...

Right. The law was inforce until Jesus arrived and then after that they were called to live by faith apart from the law.
 
T

Truster

New member
Epoisses said:
Correct. No one has ever been saved by keeping the law, ever. The law was merely for structure and discipline in a hostile world. Offering sacrifice before Christ was an act of faith in a savior to come.
Click to expand...

Nice to see finally found a little friend.
 
Derf

Derf

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Abraham knew about Jesus Christ and his Gospel, John 8:56.

Everyone is without an excuse, Romans 1:20.
Click to expand...

Those are both statements of doctrine, neither of which is "the Gospel". From your OP, you are saying I should disregard them.

And your first statement is not supported by your scripture reference. Sounds like you're adding to scripture.

Listen. I'm not trying to disagree with what I think is your premise--that the gospel is more important than the things different denominations get hung up on. But at some point you have to make a distinction between an important doctrine and a less important one. And once you make that distinction, you've both started your own version of a denomination, as [MENTION=14040]fishrovmen[/MENTION] was pointing out, and set yourself up as a judge of another man's servants, so to speak--if they are indeed sharing the gospel.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Derf said:
Those are both statements of doctrine, neither of which is "the Gospel". From your OP, you are saying I should disregard them.

And your first statement is not supported by your scripture reference. Sounds like you're adding to scripture.

Listen. I'm not trying to disagree with what I think is your premise--that the gospel is more important than the things different denominations get hung up on. But at some point you have to make a distinction between an important doctrine and a less important one. And once you make that distinction, you've both started your own version of a denomination, as [MENTION=14040]fishrovmen[/MENTION] was pointing out, and set yourself up as a judge of another man's servants, so to speak--if they are indeed sharing the gospel.
Click to expand...


The Gospel is not a religion or a denomination. The Gospel is what Jesus Christ has done to justify the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconcile us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

The Gospel calls all religions and religious thought into question. I try everything in the light of the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ. If it is not according to the Gospel, I disregard it.
 
J

jsanford108

New member
Robert Pate said:
The word "Faith" appears in the New Testament 251 times, but only twice in the Old Testament, which was a surprise to me. The words "Faithful" or "Faithfully" appear in the Old Testament 35 times. According to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible the word "Faith" #G4102 means "Reliance upon Christ for salvation"

Catholics have faith in the Catholic church. This kind of faith does not save because it is not faith in Christ and his Gospel. Remember, the word "Faith" means... "Reliance upon Christ for Salvation". Faith in a doctrine or a religion is NOT faith or reliance upon Jesus Christ for salvation. Many have faith that Jesus is the Christ or the Son of God, but they do not have faith that Jesus Christ can save them from their sins. They do not have saving faith.

I have found that those Christians that have saving faith do not embrace a religion. Perhaps there is no room in their faith for a religion.

If you have faith in Christ you will not need a religion like Calvinism or Catholicism.

Religion is nothing more than a diversion away from Christ and his Gospel and could mean the difference between salvation and damnation. It is very apparent that religion is not of faith.
Click to expand...


First off, as I have pointed out to you before, belief is doctrine. If you believe something, it is doctrine. Doctrinal beliefs make religion. This is all very simple vocabulary.

If Robert Pate believes that his "faith" is superior, he has a doctrine. His belief in doctrine makes it a religion. Your religion is "Pate's Version."

Religion is a result of doctrine, belief, and faith. It is all together. They are separate, yet always in some form of unity.

Second, you say "Catholics have faith in the Catholic Church," implying that they do not have faith in Christ. This is a false set up on your part (a straw man, as much as I hate the term). You claim they do not have saving faith. This is all ignorance. (Obviously, I am Catholic)

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which holds all beliefs/doctrines of the Catholic Church, we find, in paragraph 432, "the name 'Jesus' signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son, made man for the universal and definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name alone that brings salvation, and henceforth all can invoke His Name, for Jesus united Himself to all men through His Incarnation, so that 'there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.'

This is only one simple paragraph of many, that demonstrate the Catholic belief and doctrine that Christ alone saves. Any claim to the contrary is simply a falsehood.

If you are going to make such superfluous claims, at least be educated minimally on that which you speak.



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jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Robert Pate said:
The law was in force until Jesus arrived and then after that they were called to live by faith apart from the law.
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"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." (Romans 3:31)

Robert, you have your teachings and Paul has his teachings. I wonder who is right.
 
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