ECT Dispensationalists Who Come Out of the Theology Are Not Historicists or Preterists

northwye

New member
Dispensationalists Who Come Out of the Theology Are Not Historicists or Preterists

Dispensationalism makes use of a particular kind of futurism in its view of Bible prophecy. The one man anti-Christ figure is important in dispensationalist end time prophecy. And the appearance of that one man dispensationalist anti-Christ is always a future event in that theology.

The Calvinist and Lutheran reformers, however, did not believe that the arrival of the anti-Christ, by which they may not have meant just one individual, was always an event in the future. They thought that the Catholic Church and the Pope were anti-Christ then, at that time.

Then, at the Council of Trent, in 1545 to 1563, the Catholic Church authorized the Jesuits to combat the Protestant doctrine that the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church were anti-Christ at that time.

The Jesuits, or at least two of them in succession, created the doctrine that the anti-Christ was to come in the future, not at that time, so that the Pope and the Catholic Church could not be said to be anti-Christ at that time.

On the site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Ribera it is said
that "In order to remove the papacy of the Catholic Church from
consideration as the Antichrist (as an act of countering the
Protestant Reformation), Ribera began writing a lengthy (500 page)
commentary in 1585 on the Book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In
Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin
Commentarij, proposing that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse
apply to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future
period of 3½ literal years, immediately prior to the second coming."

The Catholic Church did not teach the doctrine of the pre-tribulation
rapture of the Church.

Manuel or Emmanuel Lacunza, 1731-1801, was a Jesuit priest who wrote
The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty (1790).

From: Chapter 3 of Stephen Sizer, Christian Zionism: Its History,
Theology and Politics, AAARGH Internet Editions 2005,

Edward Irving (1792-1834)
The Rapture and the Rupture Between Israel and the Church

"In 1826 Irving was introduced to the views of Manuel Lacunza a Spanish
Jesuit who wrote a book under
the pseudonym of Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra, allegedly a converted Jew,
entitled, 'The Coming of the Messiah in
Glory and Majesty'. Lacunza interpreted all but the first three
chapters of the Book of Revelation as describing
apocalyptic events about to happen.
Irving was so excited by Lacunza's speculations, he mastered Spanish
in order to translate and publish
the work in English.7 Irving added a 203 page preface to the
translation in which he presented with great
conviction his own unique prophetic speculations about the end of the
world, predicting the apostasy of
Christendom, the subsequent restoration of the Jews and finally the
imminent return of Christ."

Edward Irving was an associate of John Darby, known as the founder of
dispensationalism or Christian Zionism.

On http://www.poweredbychrist.com/Manuel_Lacunza.html

It is said that a Jesuit priest named Manuel de Lacunza (using the pen name "Ben-Ezra" ) taught the pretribulation rapture belief and
introduced it in his notable work "The Coming of Messiah in Glory and
Majesty" (1812).

Both Ribera and Lacunza introduced a futurist view of the prophecy of anti-Christ, This was done to counteract the Protestant teaching that the Pope and the Catholic Church were anti-Christ.

In my experience, those who have come out of dispensationalism do not go into preterism or the historical method of interpreting end time Bible prophecy, but they come to accept a form of end time prophecy interpretation which can allow some prophecy to be fulfilled at a future time and other prophecies to have an ongoing fulfillment while still others can be said to be fulfilled in the past.

The remnant people I am aware of are influenced by Dean Gotcher and James Lloyd. I do not know if Gocher was once a dispensationalist or not, but he was a part of Church theology at one time and has a background in Christian Education and probably has at least a Bachelor's Degree from a Christian college or Bible School. I know that James Lloyd was a follower of the dispensationalism of Chuck Smith of Cavalry Chapel before he came out of dispensationalism gradually. At one time he was claiming that Boutros Boutros-Ghali was the one man anti-Christ. He later realized - in the very early years of the 21st century - he was teaching a false doctrine, and that while there is a spirit of anti-Christ there is no one man anti-Christ.

Anyway, James Lloyd is not a pretrerist or a historicist, and neither is Dean Gotcher. But Gotcher has not focused much on dispensationalism, but rather has created a criticism of the dialectic which can be applied to dispensationalism.

As John says in I John 2: 18 there were many anti-Christs around when he wrote and in I John 4: 3 he says the spirit of anti-Christ was already in the world. The prophecy of anti-Christ is not for any one time, but is ongoing, and so the issue of it being future is false.. This is a point that William Tyndale made in his book The Parable of the Wicked Mammon.

Just as the prophecy of the appearing of the anti-Christ being fulfilled only in the future is false, so the preterist or historicist claim that all New Testament prophecy was fulfilled in the First century is false. The appearing of the anti-Christ, by which is meant , the spirit of anti-Christ (I John 4: 3) is ongoing.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Good essay! There was another kind of preterism that deflected for the pope, by Alcazar. It was anchored in events in 411, so that AC had come and gone by then.
 

Danoh

New member
One of the main reasons why I absolutely refuse to right off be close-minded to the view of another just because I disagree with some, if not much of their understanding is the following - from a Seventh Day Adventist.

For despite my disagreement with much of the understanding of, in this case: the Adventists, I continue to find many of them very well researched in the history of their subjects, though many of them will obviously view the results of their research from within what I have come to believe is a mistake no matter what theology one holds to.

The mistake of viewing history through one's theology.

Case in point - one that shows just how full of hot air and misinformation northwye's latest post, once more proves him to be.

In this case, his nonsense "about" Lacunza's work having been some Roman Catholic plot.

Manuel de Lacunza

As the nineteenth century opened, another work was also stirring up
interest in the second advent. Its impact was heightened by the religious affiliation of its author.

For centuries the Roman Catholic Church had either virtually ignored Christ's return or projected it into the far-distant future. Then in the 1790s a manuscript entitled "The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty," written by an exiled Jesuit priest, began to circulate in Spain and Spanish America.

Manuel de Lacunza had been
forced to leave his native Chile in 1767 when Charles III expelled all
Jesuits from his realm.

Lacunza eventually resettled in a monastery near Bologna, Italy. Here he found leisure to complete his study of the second advent, which had intrigued him for more than twenty years.

Realizing the likelihood that his views would incur the wrath of the Inquisition, Lacunza circulated his manuscript under the pseudonym Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra.

It was not until 1812, more than a decade following the author's
death, that "The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty" was published in Spain, where the Inquisition's authority had been undermined during the French occupation.

Even before publication, manuscript translations of Lacunza's work in Latin and Italian were in circulation.

Once printed, it spread rapidly,
creating a considerable stir throughout southern Europe and Latin America.

Believing that the two advents of Christ were the focal points of all history, Lacunza called for a thorough examination of the Bible for light on the soon return of Jesus.

This Jesuit priest accepted the early Christian Church's position that there were to be two resurrections of the dead, separated by a millennium.

His understanding of the second advent as occurring at the start of this millennium placed him in direct opposition to Whitbyan postmillennialism.

As Lacunza had feared, his book was condemned by the Sacred Con-
gregation of the Index.

In 1824 Pope Leo XII officially forbade its publication "in any language whatsoever."

Far from ending its influence, the
papal ban was a virtual recommendation to Protestant scholars.

- p. 26 Light Bearers to the Remnant Denominational History Textbook for Seventh-day Adventist College Classes by R. W. Schwarz

Prepared by the Department of Education General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.



Rom. 5:8
 

northwye

New member
"Light Bearers to the Remnant Denominational History Textbook for Seventh-day Adventist College Classes"

The fact that the Seventh Day Adventists are a church denomination makes it unlikely that they are the remnant of Revelation 12: 17, or are the remnant 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14. See Revelation 18: 4 on the call to come out of "her," and Revelation 18: 23 explains who "her" is.
 
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