Discussion on the history of Peter and Paul

Sherman

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Here is your thread to discuss the history of Peter and Paul. Did Peter actually travel to Rome? This is more of an ECT discussion rather than a general discussion.

This discussion doesn't actually fit in a thread on a 360 tour of the Basilica.
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
Here are examples of what early Christian writers had to say on the subject of the Peter’s Roman residency:

Ignatius of Antioch

“Not as Peter and Paul did, do I command you [Romans]. They were apostles, and I am a convict” (Letter to the Romans 4:3 [A.D. 110]).

Dionysius of Corinth

“You [Pope Soter] have also, by your very admonition, brought together the planting that was made by Peter and Paul at Rome and at Corinth; for both of them alike planted in our Corinth and taught us; and both alike, teaching similarly in Italy, suffered martyrdom at the same time” (Letter to Pope Soter [A.D. 170], in Eusebius, History of the Church 2:25:8).

Irenaeus

“Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church” (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189]).

“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the succession of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid., 3, 3, 2).

“The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the letter to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anacletus, and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. . . . To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded . . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherius. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us” (ibid., 3, 3, 3).

Gaius

“It is recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and Peter, likewise, was crucified, during the reign [of the Emperor Nero]. The account is confirmed by the names of Peter and Paul over the cemeteries there, which remain to the present time. And it is confirmed also by a stalwart man of the Church, Gaius by name, who lived in the time of Zephyrinus, bishop of Rome. This Gaius, in a written disputation with Proclus, the leader of the sect of Cataphrygians, says this of the places in which the remains of the aforementioned apostles were deposited: ‘I can point out the trophies of the apostles. For if you are willing to go to the Vatican or to the Ostian Way, you will find the trophies of those who founded this Church’” (Disputation with Proclus [A.D. 198] in Eusebius, Church History 2:25:5).

Clement of Alexandria

“The circumstances which occasioned . . . [the writing] of Mark were these: When Peter preached the Word publicly at Rome and declared the gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had been a long time his follower and who remembered his sayings, should write down what had been proclaimed” (Sketches [A.D. 200], in a fragment from Eusebius, History of the Church, 6, 14:1).

Tertullian

“But if you are near Italy, you have Rome, where authority is at hand for us too. What a happy church that is, on which the apostles poured out their whole doctrine with their blood; where Peter had a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned with the death of John [the Baptist, by being beheaded]” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 36 [A.D. 200]).

“Let us see what milk the Corinthians drained from Paul; against what standard the Galatians were measured for correction; what the Philippians, Thessalonians, and Ephesians read; what even the nearby Romans sound forth, to whom both Peter and Paul bequeathed the gospel and even sealed it with their blood” (Against Marcion 4, 5:1 [A.D. 210]).

The Little Labyrinth

“Victor . . . was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter” (The Little Labyrinth [A.D. 211], in Eusebius, Church History 5:28:3).

The Poem Against the Marcionites

“In this chair in which he himself had sat, Peter in mighty Rome commanded Linus, the first elected, to sit down. After him, Cletus too accepted the flock of the fold. As his successor, Anacletus was elected by lot. Clement follows him, well-known to apostolic men. After him Evaristus ruled the flock without crime. Alexander, sixth in succession, commends the fold to Sixtus” (Poem Against the Marcionites 276–284 [A.D. 267]).

Eusebius of Caesarea

“[In the second] year of the two hundredth and fifth Olympiad [A.D. 42]: The apostle Peter, after he has established the church in Antioch, is sent to Rome, where he remains as a bishop of that city, preaching the gospel for twenty-five years” (The Chronicle [A.D. 303]).

Peter of Alexandria

“Peter, the first chosen of the apostles, having been apprehended often and thrown into prison and treated with ignominy, at last was crucified in Rome” (Penance, canon 9 [A.D. 306]).

Lactantius

“When Nero was already reigning, Peter came to Rome, where, in virtue of the performance of certain miracles which he worked . . . he converted many to righteousness and established a firm and steadfast temple to God. When this fact was reported to Nero . . . Peter he fixed to a cross, and Paul he slew” (The Deaths of the Persecutors 2:5 [A.D. 318]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

“[Simon Magus] so deceived the city of Rome that Claudius erected a statue of him. . . .While the error was extending itself, Peter and Paul arrived, a noble pair and the rulers of the Church, and they set the error aright. . . . [T]hey launched the weapon of their like-mindedness in prayer against the Magus, and struck him down to earth. It was marvelous enough, and yet no marvel at all, for Peter was there—he that carries about the keys of heaven” (Catechetical Lectures 6:14 [A.D. 350]).

Optatus

“You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all” (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

“At Rome the first apostles and bishops were Peter and Paul, then Linus, then Cletus, then Clement, the contemporary of Peter and Paul” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 27:6 [A.D. 375]).

Damasus I

“Likewise it is decreed: . . . [W]e have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic churches spread abroad through the world comprise one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it.

“In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed apostle Paul, who contended and was crowned with a glorious death along with Peter in the city of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero. . . . They equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord; and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities of the whole world” (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome

“Simon Peter, the son of John, from the village of Bethsaida in the province of Galilee, brother of Andrew the apostle, and himself chief of the apostles, after having been bishop of the church of Antioch and having preached to the Dispersion . . . pushed on to Rome in the second year of Claudius to overthrow Simon Magus, and held the sacerdotal chair there for twenty-five years until the last, that is the fourteenth, year of Nero. At his hands he received the crown of martyrdom being nailed to the cross with his head towards the ground and his feet raised on high, asserting that he was unworthy to be crucified in the same manner as his Lord” (Lives of Illustrious Men 1 [A.D. 396]).

Augustine

“If all men throughout the world were such as you most vainly accuse them of having been, what has the chair of the Roman church done to you, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today?” (Against the Letters of Petilani 2:118 [A.D. 402]).
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Death of Peter at Vatican Hill

The earliest reference to Saint Peter's death is in a letter of Clement, bishop of Rome, to the Corinthians (1 Clement, a.k.a. Letter to the Corinthians, written c. 96 AD). The historian Eusebius, a contemporary of Constantine, wrote that Peter "came to Rome, and was crucified with his head downwards," attributing this information to the much earlier theologian Origen, who died c. 254 AD.[9] St. Peter's martyrdom is traditionally depicted in religious iconography as crucifixion with his head pointed downward.

Peter's place and manner of death are also mentioned by Tertullian (c. 160–220) in Scorpiace, [10] where the death is said to take place during the Christian persecutions by Nero. Tacitus (56–117) describes the persecution of Christians in his Annals, though he does not specifically mention Peter.[11] "They were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt." Furthermore, Tertullian says these events took place in the imperial gardens near the Circus of Nero. No other area would have been available for public persecutions after the Great Fire of Rome destroyed the Circus Maximus and most of the rest of the city in the year 64 AD.
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
Peter leaving Rome, hears the voice of Jesus, and returns to Rome to be crucified



Peter arrested in Rome



John 21:18 "when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God.

Peter crucified upside down in Rome


1200px-Crucifixion_of_Saint_Peter-Caravaggio_%28c.1600%29.jpg
 

Right Divider

Body part
Here are examples of what early Christian writers had to say on the subject of the Peter’s Roman residency:
What a bunch of confused writers say is irrelevant.

The Bible tells the story.

Peter was one of twelve apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Paul is the one apostle of gentiles.

The kingdom where Peter will be a judge is in the land of Israel with Jerusalem as it's capital.

Paul refers to a heavenly kingdom that does not have a land.

When there were questions about what was going on in Antioch, they did not send Peter.

Peter was not a Roman; Paul was.

Paul wrote a letter to the Romans; Peter did not.
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
What a bunch of confused writers say is irrelevant.

Do you think that is the way to start off an adult conversation? I started off with posting information, not insults.

The Bible tells the story.

The Bible tells what the Bible tells. The Bible does not tell the story of the last 2,000 years of Christian history. For that we have to turn to history.

Does the Bible tell the story of the protestant reformation?
Does the Bible tell the story of the East West Schism?
Does the Bible tell where all the Apostles died and how they died?
Does the Bible tell the story of the canonization of the New Testament in the 4th century?
Does the Bible tell the stories of all the miracles that have happened for 2,000 years?

The answer to all is NO.

And yet they all happened, even though they are not in the Bible.

You really need to wrap your head around the concept that there is 2,000 years of Christian history and it is not in the Bible.
 
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Right Divider

Body part
Do you think that is the way to start off an adult conversation? I started of with posting information, not insults.
You're so proud of yourself.
The Bible tells what the Bible tells.
Yes, and I just showed you some it and you commented on NONE of it.
The Bible does not tell the story of the last 2,000 years of Christian history. For that we have to turn to history.
I understand that, as an RCC, you must worship history and tradition over the Word of God.
Does the Bible tell the story of the protestant reformation?
Does the Bible tell the story of the East West Schism?
Does the Bible tell where all the Apostles dies and how they died?
Does the Bible tell the story of the canonization of the New Testament in the 4th century?
Does the Bible tell the stories of all the miracles that have happened for 2,000 years?

The answer to all is NO.
Again, no comment whatsoever on what the Bible does say.

If you would drop your false religion and start studying the scripture, you still have a chance.
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
I understand that, as an RCC, you must worship history and tradition over the Word of God.

You see Boomer? I cannot have a discussion with someone like this. I state the simple fact that there is 2,000 years of Christian history, and this is the sick rude insult I get in return. It is stupid and ignorant to say that I "worship history and tradition over the Word of God."
 
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Right Divider

Body part
You see Boomer? I cannot have a discussion with someone like this. I state the simple fact that there is 2,000 years of Christian history, and this is the sick rude insult I get in return. It is stupid and ignorant to say that I "worship history and tradition over the Word of God."

Unwatching thread.
You prefer to discuss "history" over the Bible. You probably shouldn't be on a forum like this.
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
The institution of the office of a bishop is both; false dilemma. The office was instituted by the Apostles including Paul during their era, and it has never stopped in 2,000 years.

You are correct. The first Christians had no doubts about how to determine which was the true Church and which doctrines the true teachings of Christ. The test was simple: Just trace the apostolic succession of the claimants.

Apostolic succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles. All over the world, all Catholic bishops are part of a lineage that goes back to the time of the apostles, something that is impossible in Protestant denominations (most of which do not even claim to have bishops).

The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, “[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

The Church Fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, regularly appealed to apostolic succession as a test for whether Catholics or heretics had correct doctrine. This was necessary because heretics simply put their own interpretations, even bizarre ones, on Scripture. Clearly, something other than Scripture had to be used as an ultimate test of doctrine in these cases.

Thus the early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes, “[W]here in practice was [the] apostolic testimony or tradition to be found? . . . The most obvious answer was that the apostles had committed it orally to the Church, where it had been handed down from generation to generation. . . . Unlike the alleged secret tradition of the Gnostics, it was entirely public and open, having been entrusted by the apostles to their successors, and by these in turn to those who followed them, and was visible in the Church for all who cared to look for it” (Early Christian Doctrines, 37).

For the early Fathers, “the identity of the oral tradition with the original revelation is guaranteed by the unbroken succession of bishops in the great sees going back lineally to the apostles. . . . [A]n additional safeguard is supplied by the Holy Spirit, for the message committed was to the Church, and the Church is the home of the Spirit. Indeed, the Church’s bishops are . . . Spirit-endowed men who have been vouchsafed ‘an infallible charism of truth’” (ibid.).


information source
 

Right Divider

Body part
You are correct. The first Christians had no doubts about how to determine which was the true Church and which doctrines the true teachings of Christ. The test was simple: Just trace the apostolic succession of the claimants.
Who were "the first Christians"?

The Bible says that the first ones called Christians were in Antioch in Syria.
Apostolic succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles. All over the world, all Catholic bishops are part of a lineage that goes back to the time of the apostles, something that is impossible in Protestant denominations (most of which do not even claim to have bishops).
Pure mythology, plain and simple.
The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, “[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.
Paul was NOT part of the ministry of the twelve and visa versa. See Galatians 2
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Paul was NOT under the authority of "the pope". You RCC idolaters can dream on all that you want.
How you could have possibly inferred that I said anything resembling this is beyond me.

It's much closer to the opposite: that the popes are, and always have been, under the authority of St. Paul. The divine tradition originating in Paul is part of the Sacred Apostolic Tradition that all bishops have the duty to preserve and pass on, including most importantly all the popes.
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
You RCC idolaters can dream on all that you want.

This is so typical of petty hateful people. You cannot prove your point, you cannot refute the wealth of information I provided in the first three points, so you are reduced to hurling sick insults because that is what your tiny intellect is limited to.

Peter was in Rome and Peter was the Leader of the Apostles.
 

Right Divider

Body part
How you could have possibly inferred that I said anything resembling this is beyond me.
It's standard RCC doctrine that ALL believers are "under" the "Pope".
It's much closer to the opposite: that the popes are, and always have been, under the authority of St. Paul.
That's just bizarre. Where did you get that strange idea?
The divine tradition originating in Paul is part of the Sacred Apostolic Tradition that all bishops have the duty to preserve and pass on, including most importantly all the popes.
You need to learn the doctrines of the RCC.
That doctrine (false though it may be) is that Peter is the first "Pope" and everyone was "under him".
 

Right Divider

Body part
This is so typical of petty hateful people.
Telling the truth is never hateful. But I can understand your problem.
You cannot prove your point, you cannot refute the wealth of information I provided in the first three points, so you are reduced to hurling sick insults because that is what your tiny intellect is limited to.

Peter was in Rome and Peter was the Leader of the Apostles.
Peter was NOT EVER the "leader" of Paul.

Paul received HIS instructions directly from the RISEN Lord Jesus Christ.

Why would Peter run off to Rome when he had no business there and especially when the Lord told him this?

But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. (Matthew 10:23 [KJVA]
 
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