Conversations with Jacob

[Jacob]

I would like people to take me up on this in this thread to have a conversation with me that is ongoing. Not a debate, but where my ideas can truly be examined one on one with each of you. I believe that this can happen in a thread, and I ask for it to happen here. I would like to begin by saying that I believe in Jesus. I look forward to talking with you.

 

[Jacob]

Jesus died.

 

[Jacob]

Jesus rose from the dead, never to die again.

 

[ttruscott]

Jesus died.

What does the word death mean to you?

 

[Jacob]

What does the word death mean to you?

It means about someone has died, lost their life, is no longer living.

 

[ttruscott]

It means about someone has died, lost their life, is no longer living.

Is the spirit in Shoel of a person who has died alive or dead?
Is a spirit in the lake of fire eternally alive or or dead?

What is the relationship of the dead spirit and existence?

 

[Jacob]

Is the spirit in Shoel of a person who has died alive or dead?

We find mention of sheol as a Hebrew word in the Hebrew text of the TaNaKh or Old Testament. I do not know how to answer your question though. I have read the Old Testament and the Torah, but I can't think of any Scripture reference that would help me to answer your question. Do you know of one? You said the spirit in sheol of a person who has died, assuming that the spirit is in sheol, which I would want to know if true but which I do not know from any Scripture or conversation with anyone. You asked if this spirit is alive or dead. I do not know if the spirit of a dead person is in sheol. Further, if a person has died would their spirit be alive? What are your thoughts and how can we reach some conclusion on or about this?

Is a spirit in the lake of fire eternally alive or or dead?

The lake of fire is mentioned in the English New Testament. Is a spirit in the lake of fire? Does a dead person go to the lake of fire and what about their spirit or is the spirit the person? Alive or dead? I don't know. But we need to get back to the text and see what it says. This follows your question about sheol but I don't know what relationship or correlation you might be drawing or attempting to use if you have a point.

What is the relationship of the dead spirit and existence?

I do not know. A dead spirit and existence. Well, a dead spirit implies that a spirit can be and is dead. Existence? Are you speaking of a spirit or a person? I do exist. Once I am dead would I exist any longer? If so, in what form? But this takes advantage of the questions you are asking when I really don't know what I am talking about. I do know the following though I do not have an interpretation.

Hebrews 12:9 NASB - Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?

I believe that this is saying that God is the Father of spirits? Does this mean the Father of individuals or people? Or is this talking about spirits in the world? Does it require a definition of a spirit? What are spirits like? What is a spirit? Is each person or individual a spirit? Are people spirits dead or alive? Are you a spirit if you are dead but not if you are alive? Etc.... I know this does not help that I don't know and that I do not even know if this question can be asked. I am sorry if these questions that I am asking cannot be asked. I do not know the answer or answers to your question or questions.

 

[woodeneye]

Is the spirit in Shoel of a person who has died alive or dead?
Is a spirit in the lake of fire eternally alive or or dead?

What is the relationship of the dead spirit and existence?

The Bible says that those who've died are conscious of nothing at all. So are the supposed spirits floating about in a stupor, or like the Bible says, expire with the body.

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[Jacob]

Anyone can pick a topic all their own if they want too.

 

[woodeneye]

Anyone can pick a topic all their own if they want too.

And Jehovah will always remember who were loyal to Him, and those who weren't. For me and my family, we have chosen the former. We all have the privilege choosing our own options. We can use our option to be loyal or reject what we know to be true and suffer the promised consequences.

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[Jacob]

And Jehovah will always remember who were loyal to Him, and those who weren't. For me and my family, we have chosen the former. We all have the privilege choosing our own options. We can use our option to be loyal or reject what we know to be true and suffer the promised consequences.

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God wants us to worship Him and it is up to us to do so. Thankfully I think He can help us and also when a person has a fault or is not perfect I believe He accepts us anyway. Our best is appreciated by Him.

 

[meshak]

And Jehovah will always remember who were loyal to Him, and those who weren't. For me and my family, we have chosen the former. We all have the privilege choosing our own options. We can use our option to be loyal or reject what we know to be true and suffer the promised consequences.

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Who is Jehovah to you? Most Christians believe Jesus is Jehovah.

I believe Jehovah is Jesus' Father, the only true God.

 

[meshak]

God wants us to worship Him and it is up to us to do so. Thankfully I think He can help us and also when a person has a fault or is not perfect I believe He accepts us anyway. Our best is appreciated by Him.

Amen.

 

[Jacob]

Amen.

Thanks meshak.

Anything you want to talk to me about? You can always talk to me here.

Also, our best is accepted by Him means to do what we do to the glory of God not to put on our Sunday best or our Sunday's best. I am not really going to church at all right now. Recently I was in a synagogue. I don't have anything that I am a part of.

 

[woodeneye]

Who is Jehovah to you? Most Christians believe Jesus is Jehovah.

I believe Jehovah is Jesus' Father, the only true God.

That's been my stand for 47 years. I was baptized in 1972, in Norco, Ca.

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[ttruscott]

We find mention of sheol as a Hebrew word in the Hebrew text of the TaNaKh or Old Testament. I do not know how to answer your question though. I have read the Old Testament and the Torah, but I can't think of any Scripture reference that would help me to answer your question. Do you know of one? You said the spirit in sheol of a person who has died, assuming that the spirit is in sheol, which I would want to know if true but which I do not know from any Scripture or conversation with anyone. You asked if this spirit is alive or dead. I do not know if the spirit of a dead person is in sheol. Further, if a person has died would their spirit be alive? What are your thoughts and how can we reach some conclusion on or about this?

I suggest that all spirits created in the image of GOD are eternally self and other aware, ie alive. But when such a spirit is put into a body, the body becomes alive and when the spirit departs, the body is dead. This confuses many people as to what alive and dead mean if they take their definitions from the secular world that doesn't admit to the existence of spirits.

The spirits of the dead bodies are not dead but exist in Sheol. Samuel was called up from Sheol to talk to Saul and he knew a lot of current political matters and about GOD's plans. The JWs claim this was just an hallucination cause by the witch but then she or an hallucination correctly predicted the future, shrug.

Then also the wicked RETURN to Sheol upon their death: Psalms 9:17 Yea, back to Hades must the wicked RETURN...which is replaced by 'turned into' to negate the idea of return to bolster up the false created at conception or birth theologies, bigger shrug and a sigh.

So I'm in party with the idea that alive means both existent and aware as well as attached to a body.

 

[ttruscott]

The lake of fire is mentioned in the English New Testament. Is a spirit in the lake of fire? Does a dead person go to the lake of fire and what about their spirit or is the spirit the person? Alive or dead? I don't know. But we need to get back to the text and see what it says. This follows your question about sheol but I don't know what relationship or correlation you might be drawing or attempting to use if you have a point.

Just encouraging conversation... I have been struggling with the meaning of death for along time and slowly seem to feel progress.

The topic of the lake of fire brings another element into play, the idea of "dead" spirits, which I contend are eternally alive. Alive is self and other aware but dead for such an alive spirit would mean not to be aware of a relationship with GOD, sometimes referred to as being spiritually dead. For an alive spirit to be spiritually dead is to not be alive to, ie, unaware of, GOD's presence since they have been removed from it to the outer darkness. I have settled upon the words 'the outer darkness' as the name of the actual place and the lake of fire as the metaphor for the feelings, the experience, of the place called the outer darkness.

Christ saved His elect from death yet all die...so it must be the death of damnation that is referred to in our salvation, the death of the outer darkness, not the death of the body. Our physical life is physical metaphor for our eternal spiritual life and our bodily death is a metaphor for the eternal death in the outer darkness which we are saved from by Christ but which we taste physically.

 

[ttruscott]

Hebrews 12:9 NASB - Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?

I believe that this is saying that God is the Father of spirits?

I agree.

Does this mean the Father of individuals or people?

To me it refers to the fact that HE is the creator of all living beings called spirits, that were made in HIS image.

Or is this talking about spirits in the world?

It refers to HIS created people no matter where they are living or whether they have a body or not.

Does it require a definition of a spirit? What are spirits like? What is a spirit? Is each person or individual a spirit? Are people spirits dead or alive? Are you a spirit if you are dead but not if you are alive?

I'd say I covered my thoughts of most of these questions in the last couple of posts...Spirits are the individual people created in the image of GOD. We are spirits; we have bodies. The spirit does not change upon the death of the body any more than the body dies if the clothes it wore yesterday are burnt.

 

[Jacob]

I suggest that all spirits created in the image of GOD are eternally self and other aware, ie alive. But when such a spirit is put into a body, the body becomes alive and when the spirit departs, the body is dead. This confuses many people as to what alive and dead mean if they take their definitions from the secular world that doesn't admit to the existence of spirits.

The spirits of the dead bodies are not dead but exist in Sheol. Samuel was called up from Sheol to talk to Saul and he knew a lot of current political matters and about GOD's plans. The JWs claim this was just an hallucination cause by the witch but then she or an hallucination correctly predicted the future, shrug.

Then also the wicked RETURN to Sheol upon their death: Psalms 9:17 Yea, back to Hades must the wicked RETURN...which is replaced by 'turned into' to negate the idea of return to bolster up the false created at conception or birth theologies, bigger shrug and a sigh.

So I'm in party with the idea that alive means both existent and aware as well as attached to a body.

God will help us with all of our ideas. We need to let Him.

 

[Jacob]

Just encouraging conversation... I have been struggling with the meaning of death for along time and slowly seem to feel progress.

The topic of the lake of fire brings another element into play, the idea of "dead" spirits, which I contend are eternally alive. Alive is self and other aware but dead for such an alive spirit would mean not to be aware of a relationship with GOD, sometimes referred to as being spiritually dead. For an alive spirit to be spiritually dead is to not be alive to, ie, unaware of, GOD's presence since they have been removed from it to the outer darkness. I have settled upon the words 'the outer darkness' as the name of the actual place and the lake of fire as the metaphor for the feelings, the experience, of the place called the outer darkness.

Christ saved His elect from death yet all die...so it must be the death of damnation that is referred to in our salvation, the death of the outer darkness, not the death of the body. Our physical life is physical metaphor for our eternal spiritual life and our bodily death is a metaphor for the eternal death in the outer darkness which we are saved from by Christ but which we taste physically.

I am not sure about the things that you are saying. You are saying something about outer darkness that I do not know to be true.