This thread is designed so that those interested can discuss the One on One debate between Brandplucked and themuzicman entitled: Is the King James Bible God's preserved and inerrant words?
That, however, does not change the meaning.take the word agape, translated charity and love in some places.
is agape the same word as love and charity? Lemme see.
agape has an A, G, A,P,E love has L,O,V,E wow, these two do not even have the same letters.
In matter of fact, they are not even the same language.
the King James Bible as being the only complete, inerrant, preserved and 100% true Holy Bible on the earth today.
That right there is easy to show wrong. The Red Sea was not crossed, but a sea of reeds.
Based on what evidence? :idunno:That right there is easy to show wrong. The Red Sea was not crossed, but a sea of reeds.
Based on what evidence? :idunno:
So then is inerrancy about meanng or "Preserving God's pure words"?
Evening Dave,
*KJV: 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
*(1) Geneva: 1 John 5:7 For there are three, which beare recorde in heauen, the Father, the Worde, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one.
*(2) Bishops Bible: 1 John 5:7 For there are three which beare recorde in heauen, the father, the worde, and the holy ghost, and these three are one.
*(3) KJV 1611: 1 John 5:7 For there are three that beare record in heauen, the Father, the Word, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one.
"in heauen, the Father, the Word, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one " is an addition to the early autographs, thus errant under definition #1.
This addition into Scripture comes from one family of translation.
Wrong. 1 John 5:7 is true Scripture
Here is just a partial list of those who contended for the authenticity of this verse.
Cyprian - 250 AD, Priscillian -385 AD, Jerome 420 AD, Fulgentius, Cassiodorus, Isidore of Seville, Jaqub of Edessa, Thomas Aquinas, John Wycliffe, Desiderus Erasmus, Lopez de Zuniga, John Calvin, Theodore Beza, Cipriano de Valera, John Owen, Francis Turretin, John Wesley, John Gill, Matthew Henry, Andrew Fuller, Thomas F. Middleton, Luis Gaussen, Frederick Nolan, Robert L. Dabney, Thomas Strouse, Floyd Jones, Peter Ruckman, George Ricker Berry, Edward F. Hills, David Otis Fuller, Thomas Holland, Michael Maynard and Donald A. Waite.
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is found in 10 remaining Greek manuscripts, at least 4 Old Latin manuscripts, is quoted or referred to by at least 8 church fathers, is in some ancient versions like the Syriac, Armenian and Slavic versions, in the Waldensian Bibles from 157 AD till the time of the Reformation, is in thousands of Vulgate Latin manuscripts, is in the Spanish Reina Valera used throughout the entire Spanish speaking world today, the Italian Diodati, the Russian, Portuguese, pre and post Lutheran German bibles, the French bibles, and all English versions till 1881.
1 John 5:7 was in the first English Bible by John Wycliffe in 1380, in Tyndale’s New Testament of 1525, the Coverdale Bible of 1535, Matthew’s Bible of 1537, the Taverner Bible of 1539, the Great Bible of 1539, the Geneva New Testament of 1557, the Bishop’s Bible of 1568, and the Authorized Version of 1611. The whole passage was included in the Mace New Testament of 1729, and John Wesley strongly believed it was genuine Scripture and included it in his own translation in 1755. It is still found in the NKJV 1982 Young's, the New Life Bible 1969, Green's 'literal' translation of 2000, the KJV 21st Century Version, and the Third Millenium Bible. It was even included in the Catholic Douay version of 1950, but removed from later Catholic versions. It did not disappear from a standard English Bible until the English Revised Version of 1881, based on the Westcott-Hort Greek texts, omitted it.
It is important to note that the Greek Orthodox Church's New Testament contains 1 John 5:7 both in the ancient and in the Modern Greek versions. The passage is also included in the following foreign language Bibles today: Lamsa's 1936 translation of the Syriac Peshitta, the Afrikaans 1957, the Basque N.T.; Czech Kralicka Bible, Dutch Staten Vertaling, Finnish 1776, the French Ostervald 1996 and La Bible de l'Epée 2005, the Italian Diodati, Hungarian Karoli, Icelandic 1981, Latvian N.T.; Maori, Lithuanian, Romanian Cornilescu, Russian Synodal, Russian Victor Zhuromski, the Spanish Sagradas Escrituras 1569, the Spanish Reina Valera used throughout Mexico, Central and South America 1909, 1960 and 1995, the Thai Bible, Tagalog bible, Ukranian Kulish 1871, the Vietnamese bible, and the Xhosa language Bible.
Either God has been faithful to preserve His pure words with nothing added or He has failed and the scholars of today who do not believe any Bible on this earth is the perfect word of God are right. You decide.
For more on 1 John 5:7 see - http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/1John5-7.html
Will Kinney
Evening Dave,
*KJV: 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
*(1) Geneva: 1 John 5:7 For there are three, which beare recorde in heauen, the Father, the Worde, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one.
*(2) Bishops Bible: 1 John 5:7 For there are three which beare recorde in heauen, the father, the worde, and the holy ghost, and these three are one.
*(3) KJV 1611: 1 John 5:7 For there are three that beare record in heauen, the Father, the Word, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one.
"in heauen, the Father, the Word, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one " is an addition to the early autographs, thus errant under definition #1.
This addition into Scripture comes from one family of translation.
Wrong. 1 John 5:7 is true Scripture
Here is just a partial list of those who contended for the authenticity of this verse.
Cyprian - 250 AD, Priscillian -385 AD, Jerome 420 AD, Fulgentius, Cassiodorus, Isidore of Seville, Jaqub of Edessa, Thomas Aquinas, John Wycliffe, Desiderus Erasmus, Lopez de Zuniga, John Calvin, Theodore Beza, Cipriano de Valera, John Owen, Francis Turretin, John Wesley, John Gill, Matthew Henry, Andrew Fuller, Thomas F. Middleton, Luis Gaussen, Frederick Nolan, Robert L. Dabney, Thomas Strouse, Floyd Jones, Peter Ruckman, George Ricker Berry, Edward F. Hills, David Otis Fuller, Thomas Holland, Michael Maynard and Donald A. Waite.
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is found in 10 remaining Greek manuscripts, at least 4 Old Latin manuscripts, is quoted or referred to by at least 8 church fathers, is in some ancient versions like the Syriac, Armenian and Slavic versions, in the Waldensian Bibles from 157 AD till the time of the Reformation, is in thousands of Vulgate Latin manuscripts, is in the Spanish Reina Valera used throughout the entire Spanish speaking world today, the Italian Diodati, the Russian, Portuguese, pre and post Lutheran German bibles, the French bibles, and all English versions till 1881.
1 John 5:7 was in the first English Bible by John Wycliffe in 1380, in Tyndale’s New Testament of 1525, the Coverdale Bible of 1535, Matthew’s Bible of 1537, the Taverner Bible of 1539, the Great Bible of 1539, the Geneva New Testament of 1557, the Bishop’s Bible of 1568, and the Authorized Version of 1611. The whole passage was included in the Mace New Testament of 1729, and John Wesley strongly believed it was genuine Scripture and included it in his own translation in 1755. It is still found in the NKJV 1982 Young's, the New Life Bible 1969, Green's 'literal' translation of 2000, the KJV 21st Century Version, and the Third Millenium Bible. It was even included in the Catholic Douay version of 1950, but removed from later Catholic versions. It did not disappear from a standard English Bible until the English Revised Version of 1881, based on the Westcott-Hort Greek texts, omitted it.
It is important to note that the Greek Orthodox Church's New Testament contains 1 John 5:7 both in the ancient and in the Modern Greek versions. The passage is also included in the following foreign language Bibles today: Lamsa's 1936 translation of the Syriac Peshitta, the Afrikaans 1957, the Basque N.T.; Czech Kralicka Bible, Dutch Staten Vertaling, Finnish 1776, the French Ostervald 1996 and La Bible de l'Epée 2005, the Italian Diodati, Hungarian Karoli, Icelandic 1981, Latvian N.T.; Maori, Lithuanian, Romanian Cornilescu, Russian Synodal, Russian Victor Zhuromski, the Spanish Sagradas Escrituras 1569, the Spanish Reina Valera used throughout Mexico, Central and South America 1909, 1960 and 1995, the Thai Bible, Tagalog bible, Ukranian Kulish 1871, the Vietnamese bible, and the Xhosa language Bible.
Either God has been faithful to preserve His pure words with nothing added or He has failed and the scholars of today who do not believe any Bible on this earth is the perfect word of God are right. You decide.
For more on 1 John 5:7 see - http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/1John5-7.html
Will Kinney
Hmmmm...... So you have time from your one on one to venture into the peanut gallery? Huh....... since Wyclif used the Vulgate as his source of translation, as did the Bishop's Bible use the Vulgate as a primary source this proves what exactly. The Vulgate is the perfectly preserved Word of God? The perfectly preserved inerrant translation which you state is only the King James 1611, (with apocrypha I might add) itself being a revision of the Geneva and Bishops. The apocrypha removed later by the way, as the King James translation has been revised several times. Oh right, I think the Anglican Church uses the apocrypha too. Remind me again why the Reformation saints were in Geneva? It's not rocket science. Your point is?
Or is it the Textus Receptus that is the only perfectly preserved and inerrant Word of God.
There are no manuscripts prior to Erasmus +/- 50 years that support your position. That's 15th century. No amount of revisionist history can change the fact that it is not in the autographs. Erasmus himself commented on the unsubstantiated validity of the verse. Oh wasn't he Catholic? I have heard no credible scholar say otherwise. Your own source material supports one family of translation using this verse.
Here's the English translation from Codex Sinaiticus that I have:
1John 5:7 For they that testify are three, 8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.
That the early church father's write notes of the trinity in the margins shouldn't suprise anyone, esp. after Nicea. If there were 3rd century evidence as you state, Athanasius surely would have used this passage in defense of the Arian heresy. He did not because it was not there. The passage would be a vital piece of Scripture to use in the defense of the Word, wouldn't you say?:bang:
Or is the a revelation of some kind that the rest of God's children have missed out on?
So the issue is? :think: Not to worry, the fallibility of man in his err's is corrected by God's infallibility when it comes to the transmission of HIS Word. His Words are not stopped nor muted by errors of men.
Ah, maybe it should be left as your personal preference to read the King James, and not hold other believers in bondage to your fanatical myths. The Word of God in His Holy Scriptures are read by millions in all languages, and they too have the claim of being saved, just like anyone else through FAITH in Jesus Christ.
Sorry Will, I will not bow to your golden calf ideals. Just think, this is just about an addition to a verse. Better get ready for muz.
:upright:
Evening Dave,
"in heauen, the Father, the Word, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one " is an addition to the early autographs, thus errant under definition #1.
This addition into Scripture comes from one family of translation.
Let's first clarify the distinction between verbal inspiration and inerrancy.What is inerrancy?
This thread is designed so that those interested can discuss the One on One debate between Brandplucked and themuzicman entitled: Is the King James Bible God's preserved and inerrant words?
This addition into Scripture comes from one family of translation.
If the question is, "Is the King James Bible God's preserved and inerrant words?". then the answer is NO!
Is the King Jimmy absolutely PERFECT in it's translation from the Greek and Hebrew? Not Absolutely Perfect. Even though there are NO ERRORS,
That the early church father's write notes of the trinity in the margins shouldn't suprise anyone, esp. after Nicea. If there were 3rd century evidence as you state, Athanasius surely would have used this passage in defense of the Arian heresy. He did not because it was not there. The passage would be a vital piece of Scripture to use in the defense of the Word, wouldn't you say?:bang: [/COLOR][/FONT]
Or is the a revelation of some kind that the rest of God's children have missed out on?
So the issue is? :think: Not to worry, the fallibility of man in his err's is corrected by God's infallibility when it comes to the transmission of HIS Word. His Words are not stopped nor muted by errors of men.
Ah, maybe it should be left as your personal preference to read the King James, and not hold other believers in bondage to your fanatical myths. The Word of God in His Holy Scriptures are read by millions in all languages, and they too have the claim of being saved, just like anyone else through FAITH in Jesus Christ.
Sorry Will, I will not bow to your golden calf ideals. Just think, this is just about an addition to a verse. Better get ready for muz.
:upright: