ECT Colossians 1: 12-13 and the Translation of Israel

northwye

New member
Colossians 1: 12-13 and the Translation of Israel

"Giving thanks unto the Father which hath made us meet to be part takers of the inheritance of saints in light.
13 Which hath delivered us from the power of darkness and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear son
14 in whom we have redemption through his blood that is to say the forgevenes of sin." Colossians 1: 12-13, William Tyndale translation.

The King James Version follows Tyndale - as it often does - and uses translated for μετεστησεν , Strong's number 3179,. methistémi, "cause to change its place, move out of its place; translate, transfer."

"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:" Colossians 1:12-13, King James Version

In John 20: 2l-22 Jesus Christ conveyed the Holy Spirit to his disciples. "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

In being born again by the Holy Spirit,the disciples were translated into the Israel of God (Galatians 6; 16). "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Soon Hosea 2: 23 began to be fulfilled in Acts 10 and non-Jews were added to the Israel of God.

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8. How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory." II Corinthians 3: 7-9

The Old Covenant is said here to be the ministration of death and of condemnation,and the New Covenant is the ministration of the Spirit and of righteousness.

Christ translated or transformed a remnant of Old Covenant Israel (Romans 11; 1-5) into being the beginnings of the Israel of God, fulfilling Jeremiah 18: 1-6. "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.."

But in the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-8 argument is made by many in the churches against Colossians 1: 12-13 and the translation of Old Covenant Israel into the kingdom of his dear son, which is the Israel of God of the New Covenant. In this argument against that which is absolute truth - the word of God - Old Covenant Israel is said to continue to exist, while a new body of Christ, called the Church, exists also.

An argument against the absolute truth or absolute morality is the anti-thesis of the dialectic as seen in I Timothy 6: 20-21,and so in the falling away the dialectic mind emerges.

"ω τιμοθεε την παρακαταθηκην φυλαξον εκτρεπομενος τας βεβηλους κενοφωνιας και αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως"

"αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως" Or, anti-thesis of knowledge falsely called. Avoid the anti-thesis of falsely called knowledge. In its opposition to the Truth in scripture,the dialectic deceptively offers false knowledge.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Colossians 1: 12-13 and the Translation of Israel

"Giving thanks unto the Father which hath made us meet to be part takers of the inheritance of saints in light.
13 Which hath delivered us from the power of darkness and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear son
14 in whom we have redemption through his blood that is to say the forgevenes of sin." Colossians 1: 12-13, William Tyndale translation.

The King James Version follows Tyndale - as it often does - and uses translated for μετεστησεν , Strong's number 3179,. methistémi, "cause to change its place, move out of its place; translate, transfer."

"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:" Colossians 1:12-13, King James Version

In John 20: 2l-22 Jesus Christ conveyed the Holy Spirit to his disciples. "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

In being born again by the Holy Spirit,the disciples were translated into the Israel of God (Galatians 6; 16). "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Soon Hosea 2: 23 began to be fulfilled in Acts 10 and non-Jews were added to the Israel of God.

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8. How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory." II Corinthians 3: 7-9

The Old Covenant is said here to be the ministration of death and of condemnation,and the New Covenant is the ministration of the Spirit and of righteousness.

Christ translated or transformed a remnant of Old Covenant Israel (Romans 11; 1-5) into being the beginnings of the Israel of God, fulfilling Jeremiah 18: 1-6. "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.."

But in the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-8 argument is made by many in the churches against Colossians 1: 12-13 and the translation of Old Covenant Israel into the kingdom of his dear son, which is the Israel of God of the New Covenant. In this argument against that which is absolute truth - the word of God - Old Covenant Israel is said to continue to exist, while a new body of Christ, called the Church, exists also.

An argument against the absolute truth or absolute morality is the anti-thesis of the dialectic as seen in I Timothy 6: 20-21,and so in the falling away the dialectic mind emerges.

"ω τιμοθεε την παρακαταθηκην φυλαξον εκτρεπομενος τας βεβηλους κενοφωνιας και αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως"

"αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως" Or, anti-thesis of knowledge falsely called. Avoid the anti-thesis of falsely called knowledge. In its opposition to the Truth in scripture,the dialectic deceptively offers false knowledge.

Is Paul being ironical here or condoning his own underhanded motives ?


2Cor 12
16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
 

northwye

New member
No,in I Timothy 6: 20 Paul is taking about a specific kind of deception used in the dialectic type of argument. ψευδώνυμος, pseudónumos, false name or falsely named knowledge. In a dialectic argument involving several rounds of debate the target person can be led to think that truth is somehow obtained in the arguments themselves. In each round of argument the target person is led a little off his thesis, until finally he is completely off his thesis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic

"Dialectic (also dialectics and the dialectical method), from Ancient Greek διαλεκτική, is a method of argument.....The word dialectic originated in ancient Greece, and was made popular by Plato in the Socratic dialogues."

"In classical philosophy, dialectic (Greek: διαλεκτική) is a form of reasoning based upon dialogue of arguments and counter-arguments, advocating propositions (theses) and counter-propositions (antitheses)."

"Aristotle said that it was the pre-Socratic philosopher Zeno of Elea who invented dialectic, of which the dialogues of Plato are the examples of the Socratic dialectical method."

Paul could have known about the dialectic procedure of argument in Greek philosophy.

The Marxist version of the Hegelian dialectic has been developed into a belief and attitude change procedure in the 20th century. The dialectic was used in some Encounter Groups as a method of belief and attitude change in small groups by what were called facilitators.

In Marxism the dialectic is used to overthrow absolute Truth and absolute Morality.
 

Danoh

New member
"Dialectic or dialectics (Greek: διαλεκτική, dialektikḗ), also known as the dialectical method, is a discourse between two or more people holding different points of view about a subject but wishing to establish the truth through reasoned arguments."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic

In other words, two or more individuals comparing notes to the greater understanding on a thing of all concerned.

To be sure, that is too often rare in exchanges between people, being that far too often any challenge is right off taken as a sign the other side is up to no good.

Thus - can it be misused? Yes.

Both intentionally, and out of the "conspiracy" the ever one-sided conspiracist cannot but ever "see" lurking behind every bush.

Does that mean that is always the case? No.

Is it often?

Too often.

Personally, I have always found it a mark of incompetence to conclude the other side is up to no good just because such an one appears to be.

Far too often, the actual case is that both sides are simply where they are each at in their respective understandings and have simply concluded their basis was all there was to consider.

Such individuals might be concluded hacks, but it does not necessarily mean they are up to no good.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
"Dialectic or dialectics (Greek: διαλεκτική, dialektikḗ), also known as the dialectical method, is a discourse between two or more people holding different points of view about a subject but wishing to establish the truth through reasoned arguments."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic

In other words, two or more individuals comparing notes to the greater understanding on a thing of all concerned.

To be sure, that is too often rare in exchanges between people, being that far too often any challenge is right off taken as a sign the other side is up to no good.

Thus - can it be misused? Yes.

Both intentionally, and out of the "conspiracy" the ever one-sided conspiracist cannot but ever "see" lurking behind every bush.

Does that mean that is always the case? No.

Is it often?

Too often.

Personally, I have always found it a mark of incompetence to conclude the other side is up to no good just because such an one appears to be.

Far too often, the actual case is that both sides are simply where they are each at in their respective understandings and have simply concluded their basis was all there was to consider.

Such individuals might be concluded hacks, but it does not necessarily mean they are up to no good.

I think northwye's definition is correct.

Whereas your example's outcome is a possibility only when one is seeking truth without using dialectics.
 

northwye

New member
"In the eyes of the dialectical philosophy, nothing is established for
all time, nothing is absolute or sacred." (Karl Marx)

Marxists made the dialectic type of argument into a weapon for wrecking the culture.The Marxist version of the dialectic is not a method for discovering truth,but a basic part of changing a culture to make it easier to set up a totalitarian world government and a collectivist society.

God's word is not taught by the dialectic procedure. It is taught by someone with a strong belief in its truth and in a didactic way.

Even experimental science,which, unlike the word of God, does not claim to be unchanging truth,is taught by the didactic method, not by the dialectic.
 

Danoh

New member
"In the eyes of the dialectical philosophy, nothing is established for
all time, nothing is absolute or sacred." (Karl Marx)

Marxists made the dialectic type of argument into a weapon for wrecking the culture.The Marxist version of the dialectic is not a method for discovering truth,but a basic part of changing a culture to make it easier to set up a totalitarian world government and a collectivist society.

God's word is not taught by the dialectic procedure. It is taught by someone with a strong belief in its truth and in a didactic way.

Even experimental science,which, unlike the word of God, does not claim to be unchanging truth,is taught by the didactic method, not by the dialectic.

And yet, all you ever do is quote and reason from...your endless books "about."

Might as warn others not to drink the poison you are about to...once more - Dr. YOU and the Dialectics :chuckle:
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
"In the eyes of the dialectical philosophy, nothing is established for
all time, nothing is absolute or sacred." (Karl Marx)

Marxists made the dialectic type of argument into a weapon for wrecking the culture.The Marxist version of the dialectic is not a method for discovering truth,but a basic part of changing a culture to make it easier to set up a totalitarian world government and a collectivist society.

God's word is not taught by the dialectic procedure. It is taught by someone with a strong belief in its truth and in a didactic way.

Even experimental science,which, unlike the word of God, does not claim to be unchanging truth,is taught by the didactic method, not by the dialectic.

Yes, our country is sadly lacking in customs.

Even a greeting and parting handshake has all but disappeared.
 
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