Chuck Colson re: Enyart's Death Penalty Video

[Jefferson]

Chuck Colson re: Enyart's Death Penalty Video

Tuesday December 13th, 2005. This is show # 247.

In this show Bob discusses Chuck Colson's response to Bob's God and the Death Penalty video.

 

[godrulz]

Any chance of a summary for those who do not listen to the program link? Is Enyart for or against the death penalty? Colson? What was the gist of Colson's response? + or -?

 

[Jefferson]

Any chance of a summary for those who do not listen to the program link? Is Enyart for or against the death penalty? Colson? What was the gist of Colson's response? + or -?

Enyart is for the death penalty. Colson is against it except in "extreme" cases. Enyart quoted the Bible to support his case. Colson quoted C.S. Lewis to support his.

 

[sentientsynth]

Yep, Jefferson, that about covers it!!

 

[sentientsynth]

Any chance of a summary for those who do not listen to the program link? Is Enyart for or against the death penalty? Colson? What was the gist of Colson's response? + or -?

You ought listen Godrulz. I haven't been a Christian for very long and Pastor Enyart has strengthened me in my understanding of the Bible. Besides this, Bob has a healthy sense of humor which makes his show very unique. Check it out!

SS

 

[godrulz]

Enyart is for the death penalty. Colson is against it except in "extreme" cases. Enyart quoted the Bible to support his case. Colson quoted C.S. Lewis to support his.

I wonder what the extreme cases are? If there is a possibility of innocence (no DNA, witnesses, etc. in a less than horrible crime?), does this preclude it? Colson refers to heinous crimes.

I am in favor of the death penalty even though we are not a theocracy like Israel was. I think the OT principles apply since they were not explicitly rescinded in the NT.

Since Enyart is Mid-Acts and does not even think much of the NT was written to Gentiles in the dispensation of grace, I wonder why he would use the OT, Gospels, and non-Pauline books? :help:

I guess I will have to listen and this is what I am doing now:

The Revelation passages Enyart mentions are about the future Great Tribulation and Trib. saints, not 'born again' North Americans right now. The Trib. is dealing with the judgment of the world and restoration of Israel. They are not didactic passages for the Church Age ( I think Enyart says the Trib. was in the first century?).

I guess I need the DVD (but in Canada it would cost many pesos). The radio show does not build a case or reveal all that Colson or Enyart believe.

I enjoyed the gist of the show. Our nations have drifted from their Judeo-Christian foundation.

 

[sentientsynth]

Since Enyart is Mid-Acts and does not even think much of the NT was written to Gentiles in the dispensation of grace, I wonder why he would rely on the OT (I presume since the NT is not explicit, nor did it rescind it)?

Paul tells Timothy that the Law is good if one uses it lawfully, that is, the Law is for the wicked.

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Another statement of Paul:

Acts 25:11 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest. 11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die:

SS

 

[docrob57]

Enyart is for the death penalty. Colson is against it except in "extreme" cases. Enyart quoted the Bible to support his case. Colson quoted C.S. Lewis to support his.

:up: it was a good show.

 

[Servo]

The Revelation passages Enyart mentions are about the future Great Tribulation and Trib. saints, not 'born again' North Americans right now. The Trib. is dealing with the judgment of the world and restoration of Israel.

But what was Bob talking about when he used that verse? You must take it in context.

 

[godrulz]

But what was Bob talking about when he used that verse? You must take it in context.

The Revelation context is not a proof text for 21 st century death penalties. I believe in the death penalty, but would be straining exegesis to use Revelation texts to prove it. We need to watch the full teaching to see his NT case for it.

 

[sentientsynth]

The Revelation context is not a proof text for 21 st century death penalties.

It proves that the righteous demand justice, justice in the form of God exacting vengeance upon those who murdered them. I provided two texts above. What do you think of those?

SS

 

[godrulz]

One can take principles by way of application from the texts. The point is that, in context, they are not primarily didactic proof texts for modern capital punishment (which I support).

Paul was a Roman citizen. Jewish or Roman law does not prove that capital punishment is part of the Church Age (though I think it was not rescinded and is applicable...let's just be careful to keep verses in their primary context...some will wonder why we pick and chose parts of the Old Covenant...those who make a case for the death penalty from the OT want nothing to do with tithing or any aspect of the laws of God....hmmm...if a Christian murders their spouse, do we say we are not under the law and should be exempt unlike the unbeliever who kills their spouse? I guess the laws of the land are another issue, but we need a biblical basis for our stand).

 

[sentientsynth]

Absolutely. Would you then agree that it shows that the righteous demand the justice of the law?

Also, what of the Timothy passages?

 

[godrulz]

Absolutely. Would you then agree that it shows that the righteous demand the justice of the law?

Also, what of the Timothy passages?

Verse in Timothy?

The righteous do demand justice since their God is a God of justice. I agree with Enyart on the deterrent issue also.

 

[sentientsynth]

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

The Law applies to those who are under the Law:for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,. The Law applies for such as these. The Law hasn't passed away for the world, only for the righteous.

SS

 

[godrulz]

The Law applies to those who are under the Law:for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,. The Law applies for such as these. The Law hasn't passed away for the world, only for the righteous.

SS

So, if a believer kills someone, are they exempt from the Law?

 

[sentientsynth]

Absolutely not.

 

[Jefferson]

So, if a believer kills someone, are they exempt from the Law?

Paul said in Acts 25:11 - " For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying"