Calvinist Love-Hate Relationships

[Jefferson]

Calvinist Love-Hate Relationships

Tuesday August 16th, 2005. This is show # 162.

BEST QUOTE OF THE SHOW:
(From caller John in Thorton Colorado)

If there was predestination and fate dictated everything, it would entirely nullify the entire book of Jonah. Because if Johah did not believe his going to Nineveh would have a bearing on Nineveh being destroyed, he would have had no problem of going there in the first place.

 

[shilohproject]

I'm no Calvinist or predestinationist-by-any-other-name (and in fact think it make no sense at all!), but in fairness, Jonah's response only tells us what Jonah thought, not whether he was right.

 

[Vaquero45]

Was a great show.

I'm no Calvinist or predestinationist-by-any-other-name (and in fact think it make no sense at all!), but in fairness, Jonah's response only tells us what Jonah thought, not whether he was right.

If everything is predestined and Jonah believed it, he could have figured it didn't mater if he went to Nineveh or not. However, he also would have known he didn't have a choice, but whatever he did end up doing would be what God had planned, so I guess he really wouldn't have to care. At any rate, "what Jonah thought" would also be predestined, so it must be "right" unless God programmed Jonah to be "wrong" that time.

It gets confusing.

Jeff

 

[Poly]

Was a great show.



If everything is predestined and Jonah believed it, he could have figured it didn't mater if he went to Nineveh or not. However, he also would have known he didn't have a choice, but whatever he did end up doing would be what God had planned, so I guess he really wouldn't have to care. At any rate, "what Jonah thought" would also be predestined, so it must be "right" unless God programmed Jonah to be "wrong" that time.

:dizzy:

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

It gets confusing.

That it does--not the least of which because English just doesn't have the grammar to discuss non-temporal and extra-temporal events.

For my part, as a non-Christian, I have absolutely no problem with the Creator knowing all of the Future that can be known. But if something hasn't happened yet, it can't be definitely known, because choices and contingencies that may lead to that event have not been made yet. Even at that, the Creator is intelligent, and has a very good clue on how people will react to a given circumstance.

But that knowledge is not necessarily perfect, because of human free will and random circumstance. So perhaps a normally cowardly person stands up to a mugger and scares him off ... that may change the future of that mugger, who swears off mugging. (Heck, folks, I know it's a lame example, but I'm making this up as I go along!)

But that leaves prophecy: what happens when, say, the Christian God says "This will happen." Well, there's absolutely nothing preventing God from reaching down and causing the prophesied event.

It all makes sense ... what's the problem?

 

[Vaquero45]

I think I agree with all you said Justin, but the idea of the post was trying to follow the logic if everything is predestined and dictated by fate. Your post made sense, but wasn't following the line of the original post quoting Bob Enyart.

Jeff

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

I think I agree with all you said Justin, but the idea of the post was trying to follow the logic if everything is predestined and dictated by fate. Your post made sense, but wasn't following the line of the original post quoting Bob Enyart.

Jeff

Jeff, you're right, and I probably should have started that as a new post, but frankly the thought struck me and I wanted to get it posted before I lost it. I completely forgot about posting it to a new thread instead of replying to this one.

Hey, I never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the chandelier.

 

[Vaquero45]

Well, your post makes you sound like an "Open View" guy. You been reading the Battle Royale? Looks like some of it stuck. We'll "re-"make a Christian out of you yet!

Jeff

 

[shilohproject]

It gets confusing.

Jeff

Or just silly! My point is that what Jonah thought has little to do with proving anything in this arena. He could have just been mistaken.

 

[RightIdea]

I'm no Calvinist or predestinationist-by-any-other-name (and in fact think it make no sense at all!), but in fairness, Jonah's response only tells us what Jonah thought, not whether he was right.

That doesn't hold up. You're going to dismiss the words of a prophet that are divinely inspired in a prophetic book... words that are making a doctrinal statement? This seems to be an incredible reach.

 

[shilohproject]

That doesn't hold up. You're going to dismiss the words of a prophet that are divinely inspired in a prophetic book... words that are making a doctrinal statement? This seems to be an incredible reach.

No one is dismissing any divinely inspired words of Jonah. (Go back and read the thread and I believe you'll see.)

Having said that, not all the words of an inspired person are inspired, nor are all the thoughts, actions, etc. Or do you hold that Jonah's disobedience to the command of God was a divinely inspired action? To me, that's what doesn't hold up.