Calvinism: Imputed Death?

[Jerry Shugart]

The Westminister Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that the "death in sin" of Adam and Eve is conveyed to all of their posterity by original generation:

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).​

This death is obviously referring to "spiritual" death. But does a person die spiritually as a result of his own sin or as a result of the sin of Adam? Let us look at what James says here:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

It is a man's own sin which results in spiritual death. In the following passage Paul practically says the same thing:

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death...For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21,23).​

Therefore,I cannot believe that the sin of Adam results in spiritual death for all mankind, as the Calvinists teach.

 

[daqq]

Therefore,I cannot believe that the sin of Adam results in spiritual death for all mankind, as the Calvinists teach.

Hey, we finally agree on something!

Your "original sin" happened the first time you willfully sinned, just as everyone else, and before that day you were innocent. Just because all sin, and all fall short, does not translate into the "original sin" doctrine which most use primarily for theologic purposes.

Deuteronomy 1:39 ASV
39 Moreover your little ones, that ye said should be a prey, and your children, that this day have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

This is yet again the same kind of typology and analogy where the "old man" dies off in the wilderness and the "new man" enters into the promised inheritance. It is not that anyone is "perfect" but that the mind of Messiah, (his Testimony), must be put on while the old man must be cut off and allowed to die off in the wilderness along the way to the promised land. When you cross the Jordan you will see a hill of foreskins: leave the foreskin of your heart there, on the mountain of flesh, as you enter into the Land. :chuckle:

Deut 24:16, Jer 31:29-31, (New Covenant Language), Eze 18:1-20, (New Covenant Language).

Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Jeremiah 31:29-31 KJV
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

What is this proverb of which he speaks, "The fathers have eaten the sour grape: the children's teeth are set on edge"? No doubt this concerns a more ancient version of the so-called original sin doctrine which was held among some Israelites because of the creation narrative. The Prophet Jeremiah says it will not stand because, as the Torah clearly states, every one will die for his own sin. Moreover this is the famous Jeremiah passage concerning the New Covenant which is quoted in Hebrews chapter eight. And what does the Prophet Ezekiel say about it?

Exekiel 18:1-4 KJV
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

There is therefore no choice but to part oneself asunder and put to death the "old man" nature because the soul that sins shall die. It is therefore just as I said to you previously herein, Crucible, and as I also said, Yeshua teaches these things in his doctrine:

Matthew 10:38-39
38 And the one not taking up his cross and following after me is not worthy of me.
39 The one finding his soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and the one apollumi-destroying his soul for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 16:23-26
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: you are an offense unto me: for you savor not the things that be of Elohim, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Yeshua to his disciples, If anyone will come after me, let him utterly-disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and whosoever will apollumi-destroy his soul for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and zemiow-lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Luke 9:23-25
23 And he said to them all, If anyone will come after me, let him utterly-disown himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his soul shall destroy it: but whosoever will destroy his soul for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

Luke 14:26-27
26 If anyone come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, even his own soul also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever does not bear his cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

It is just as Paul likewise teaches throughout: putting to death or mortifying your own "members" which are upon your own land, or mortifying the deeds of the body, that is, cutting off sin from your household-body-temple which is no more your own when you enter into Yeshua faithfulness.

This is the old parable of the orginial sin doctrine:

"Adam ate the sour grape, the children's teeth are set on edge!"

This is what the Father says about it:

"As I live, says Adonai YHWH, you shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Yisrael."

Jeremiah 31:29-31 = New Covenant Language = Ezekiel 18:1-4

The old proverb-parable of the original sin total depravity doctrine:

"Adam ate the sour grape, the children's teeth are set on edge!"

What the Father says about that proverb-doctrine in New Covenant language:

"As I live, says Adonai YHWH, you shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Yisrael."

And whether anyone believes it or not the Yhudim received this proverb by Enoch:

Enoch 31:1-5
1 After these things, surveying the entrances of the north, above the mountains, I perceived seven mountains replete with pure nard, odoriferous trees, cinnamon and papyrus.
2 From thence I passed on above the summits of those mountains to some distance eastwards, and went over the Erythræan sea. And when I was advanced far beyond it, I passed along above the angel Zateel, and arrived at the garden of righteousness. In this garden I beheld, among other trees, some which were numerous and large, and which flourished there.
3 Their fragrance was agreeable and powerful, and their appearance both varied and elegant. The tree of knowledge also was there, of which if any one eats, he becomes endowed with great wisdom.
4 It was like a species of the tamarind tree, bearing fruit which resembled grapes extremely fine; and its fragrance extended to a considerable distance. I exclaimed, How beautiful is this tree, and how delightful is its appearance!
5 Then holy Raphael, an angel who was with me, answered and said, This is the tree of knowledge, of which thy ancient father and thy aged mother ate, who were before thee; and who, obtaining knowledge, their eyes being opened, and knowing themselves to be naked, were expelled from the garden.
http://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-31/

:Nineveh:

 

[Tambora]

Does not Paul teach us that death befell all of mankind because of one man's disobedience and unrighteousness, and that life is given by one man's righteousness and obedience?

As in ....

Romans 5:12 KJV
(12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Romans 5:17 KJV
(17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


1 Corinthians 15:21-22 KJV
(21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[Right Divider]

Does not Paul teach us that death befell all of mankind because of one man's disobedience and unrighteousness, and that life is given by one man's righteousness and obedience?

As in ....

Romans 5:12 KJV
(12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:17 KJV
(17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 KJV
(21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

As a generalization yes, but individuals are still responsible for their own sin.

There was a curse put on all of creation when Adam sinned (Gen 3:17).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Does not Paul teach us that death befell all of mankind because of one man's disobedience and unrighteousness, and that life is given by one man's righteousness and obedience?

As in ....

Romans 5:12 KJV
(12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Tambora, look at the end of the verse which you quoted which says that "death passed upon all men for that all have sinned."

 

[Robert Pate]

Tambora, look at the end of the verse which you quoted which says that "death passed upon all men for that all have sinned."

What if Adam had not sinned? Would we be born into the world as righteous? We are infected by sin because Adam sinned.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What if Adam had not sinned? Would we be born into the world as righteous? We are infected by sin because Adam sinned.

What evidence can you give that anyone is infected by sin because Adam sinned?

 

[Tambora]

Tambora, look at the end of the verseb which you quoted which says that "death passed upon all men for that all have sinned."

I have, Jerry.
But I still see that death befell mankind due to Adam, even though all others did not sin in the same comparison as Adam had done.

Romans 5:12-14 KJV
(12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
(14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.​

To me, scripture is telling us that the sins that others commit later does not annul that death came to all because of the sin of Adam committed earlier.
In a similar fashion just as the law that came later did not annul the oath made to Abe earlier.

In other words, just because many sins (plural) were done by others later does not cancel out that death came upon all because of that one man;s sin (singular) done earlier.

In fact Romans 5 deals with that too.

Romans 5:15 KJV
(15) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence [of Adam's singular sin] of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many [with plural sins].​

The wage (payment) of sin befell the sting of death upon many [plural - many men with many sins] through the singular action of one man (Adam).
The redemption (payment) to heal that sting of death to many through the singular action of one man (Christ).
Or, another way to put it another way ...
The first Adam fell and that one action of one man affected many.
The last Adam was lifted up and that one action of one man affected many.



What is your view of what these verses are telling us?
I will listen.
Thanks.

 

[john w]

The bible is a book of details...

Romans 6:23 KJV

For the wages of sin(my emphasis-"sin"-singular, not "sins"-plural)is death; but the gift of God is eternal life

Romans 8:3 KJV

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin(my emphasis-"sin"-singular, not "sins"-plural), condemned sin (my emphasis-"sin"-singular, not "sins"-plural)in the flesh:

1 Cor 15:1-4 KJV

"...Christ died for our sins...."(my emphasis-"sins" -plural)


John 3:4 KJV Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 4:15 KJV because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


Romans 5:13 KJV

(for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Thus, sin is the transgression of the law. However, if there is no law, a transgression against it cannot occur("where no law is, there is no transgression"), and sin cannot be imputed to one, if there is no law by which that sin is defined/held against you("sin is not imputed when there is no law-Romans 5:13 KJV).


And, hence, Paul's point below-And yet("Nevertheless"), people croaked, from the time of Adam, until Moses, when there was no law!

Why did they croak? Spiritual death...

Romans 5 KJV
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15


Nevertheless =his argument.

Why? Paul's point-sin nature....spiritual death....the life of God left Adam.....the wages of sin is death.......spiritual death.

 

[Tambora]

What if Adam had not sinned? Would we be born into the world as righteous? We are infected by sin because Adam sinned.

Here's a thought ......

If Adam had not sinned, then his bride (Eve) would have been kicked out of the garden, being forever separated from her husband with no hope of having a descendant that could ever redeem her.

Eve was deceived, Adam was not deceived.

1 Timothy 2:14-15 KJV
(14) And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
(15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing [that promised seed of hers], if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.​

Eve could have no salvation without a descendant (a kinsman redeemer).
And she couldn't have a descendant unless Adam tasted the sting of death with her.

Deceived denotes unknowingly.
Adam knowingly took upon himself the same sting of death his bride (bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh - ie. of his own body) was now subject to.
After seeing Eve had already fallen and knowing what GOD said would happen Adam went ahead and did it anyway KNOWING he would then be subject to death.
Why would he do that?


This whole story has a familiar ring to me, but on a much larger scale.

Jesus Christ (the last Adam) took upon Himself the form of man and knowingly took upon Himself the sin of mankind.
It's as if Christ loved His own body (His bride) so much that He was willing to taste the sting of death to save her.


If Adam had not tasted the sting of death along with his bride, his bride would have had no hope of a kinsman redeemer and would have been forever separated from her husband.

Just a thought.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have, Jerry.But I still see that death befell mankind due to Adam, even though all others did not sin in the same comparison as Adam had done.

Yes, due to Adam. Without a doubt Romans 5:12-18 is one of the most misunderstood passages of the New Testament and a false understanding of this passage provides the very foundation for the myth of "Original Sin." Let us look first at Romans 5:12:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

From this we can understand the following: (1) Sin entered the world when Adam sinned and that sin brought about spiritual death. (2) Adam's sin was somehow responsible for bringing spiritual death to all men. (3) This death came to all men because all have sinned.

What this verse does not tell us is exactly "how" Adam was responsible for bring death to all men. However, the verse which follows was written in order to explain how that came about:

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

If Adam would have obeyed the Lord then he would have remained in a state of "innocence" and "law" would not have come upon his descendants: "when there is no law, sin is not imputed." This principle is illustrated in the following verse:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (Jas.4:17).​

God will not impute sin into a person's account unless that person first knows the difference between what is good and what is not.

Therefore we can understand that if sin is not imputed into anyone's account then there would be no spiritual death.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The bible is a book of details...

Romans 6:23 KJV

For the wages of sin(my emphasis-"sin"-singular, not "sins"-plural)is death; but the gift of God is eternal life

Hi saint john w,

Are we suppose to believe that this verse is speaking of a single sin?:

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (Jn.1:29).​

Just asking.

Thanks!

 

[john w]

Hi saint john w,

Are we suppose to believe that this verse is speaking of a single sin?:

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (Jn.1:29).​

Just asking.

Thanks!

Sin in the passage quoted is referring to the collective sins of mankind-"of the world," the sins of Israel, a reference to carrying away their griefs, burdens-NADA to do with dying for our sins, as propitiation, the satisfactory sacrifice.

Post #2
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116037-Article-gets-quot-the-mystery-quot-wrong

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Sin in the passage quoted is referring to the collective sins of mankind-"of the world," the sins of Israel, a reference to carrying away their griefs, burdens-NADA to do with dying for our sins, as propitiation, the satisfactory sacrifice.

I agree with that. But when the word "sin" is used in that passage it is not referring to a "single" sin, is it?

 

[john w]

I agree with that. But when the word "sin" is used in that passage it is not referring to a "single" sin, is it?

Correct. But it is in the passages, I cited, in my post.

I will let all the rest of you knuckleheads engage Jerry, in this overrated thread. Although I agree with much of his understanding in the book, he is a member that is always right, in his mind, and will not/cannot be persuaded-it is akin to rearranging the proverbial deck chairs on the SS Titanic. i.e., not productive/counterproductive. And thus, I will not "engage" him further, SS Enterprise/TOL members.

I am sure Jerry will give me a "You won't debate....You cannot answer the question....You are clearly wrong," and all that jazz, stumper/send off. Of course, since he is obviously always right....


By, by, and don't buy bonds, rummies, as I bid you "Adios," on this collapsing thread...

_______________________
"Nevertheless..."-Paul

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Correct. But it is in the passages, I cited, in my post.

Let's see if the word "sin" in this passage which you quoted is referring to a "single" sin:

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21-23).​

In verse 21 we read that "the end of those things is death," so we can understand that it is more than a "single" sin to which Paul is making reference. In the next verse where the word "sin" is used there is nothing which indicates that a "single" sin is in view. And already shown, in verse 21 Paul is saying that it is not just "one" thing which brings death so there is no reason to think that these word "sin" in this verse is referring to a "single" sin:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord"​

 

[john w]

Let's see if the word "sin" in this passage which you quoted is referring to a "single" sin: blah blah blah spam................


In verse 21 we read that "the end of those things is death," so we can understand that it is more than a "single" sin to which Paul is making reference. In the next verse where the word "sin" is used there is nothing which indicates that a "single" sin is in view. And already shown, in verse 21 Paul is saying that it is not just "one" thing which brings death so there is no reason to think that these word "sin" in this verse is referring to a "single" sin:

blah blah blah spam................

Oh.

As I predicted-Jerry is always right, and floored us again with his "Let's see..we read...already shown...." debate ender.


Next up: "Clearly...It is obvious..."

You bore us. Move on.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Oh.

I wonder what kind of death is being referred to here?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

I thought you left this thread but since you are back would you please give us your opinion about what kind of "death" is being referred to in "bold"?

Thanks!

 

[flintstoned]

What evidence can you give that anyone is infected by sin because Adam sinned?

We inherited a sin nature as a consequence of Adam's sin. We also die as a consequence of Adam's sin. Adam (all mankind) was separated from the "tree of life" which would have made him immortal. His physical separation from the tree led to his physical death. He started dying that day. He also was separated spiritually from the "tree of life" due to his sin.

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

18Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.​

 

[john w]

I wonder what kind of death is being referred to here?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

I thought you left this thread but since you are back would you please give us your opinion about what kind of "death" is being referred to in "bold"?

Thanks!

Oh.

"Obviously," "It is evident," that "clearly" you are always right, Jenny, as "we read" that you have an un-teacheable "spirit."

You bore us.