Bob debates Keeping the Sabbath

[Jefferson]

Bob debates Keeping the Sabbath

This is the show from Thursday May 12th, 2011.

SUMMARY:



* Should Christians Today Keep the Sabbath? This important discussion with a Christian brother from Yuma, Colorado on the Sabbath follows well on last week's conversation with Sidney, the Muslim from Chicago who brought up that most Christians do not keep the Sabbath, an observation that Bob agreed with and attempted in brief to explain why. This conversation from July 2004 provides a detailed survey of the biblical material on the subject, significantly develops the issue, and directly addresses whether or not God requires people today to keep the Sabbath.

Today’s Resource: Bob Enyart's life's work is based on this observation: Grasping the overview of the Bible is the KEY to its DETAILS. It's available in a soft-cover book titled The Plot, and in a downloadable pdf version or both, and it's also available in an audio recording of Bob's Plot seminars! And have your kids or grand kids heard the The Plot Boys yet? In this audio series for young people, Bob and two young boys, Stephen and Josh, teach through an overview of the Bible. This teaching is presented in a way that kids (and adults) can really understand, so it's a valuable foundation for a serious understanding of the story of the Bible. Also, consider ordering the entire Enyart Library! This invaluable resource will benefit your entire family or church and help support the ministry of Bob Enyart Live.

 

[elohiym]

This conversation from July 2004 provides a detailed survey of the biblical material on the subject, significantly develops thed issue, and directly addresses whether or not God requires people today to keep the Sabbath.

I listened to the entire show. Bob's argument fails in a number of significant ways.

First, Bob apparently did not seem to feel it necessary to explain the purpose and meaning of the sabbath. He never mentioned that the seventh day was sanctified, and never argued the day is not still sanctified. He didn't speak of how the Sabbath is evidence of God's sovereignty, the whole point of the commandment. Therefore, Bob appears to believe that, what God sanctifies, man's doctrines and reasoning can somehow unsanctify. The seventh day is still sanctified, and Bob's argument doesn't address that point. In fact, if the Sabbath could be unsanctified, then Christians sanctified by the Spirit can be unsanctified and salvation can be lost. In that sense, argument against the Sabbath commandment is an argument against OSAS, but the Sabbath proves our salvation is irrevocable.

Second, Bob claimed that between Genesis 2:3 and Exodus 16 the sabbath commandment isn't mentioned, and this is supposed to be a significant point. His point fails because it ignores that Moses allegedly authored the first five books; Bob talks in spans of years and chapters, as though the books were not all written by the same man to the same audience trying to communicate the same message. Additionally, Bob argues that Ne 9:14 proves that the Sabbath commandment was first given by Moses. His point is moot because Moses allegedly wrote the first five books of the Bible--we have no earlier authors on record! Further, Jesus said, "The sabbath was made for man." If it was made for man, then it was made for Adam. And since Bob conceded that Moses allegedly wrote the first five books to an audience he gave the law to, he should concede that he meant Abraham kept the Sabbath when he wrote: "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Third, Bob argues the Sabbath is a perpetual covenant between God and Israel, and because Bob thinks that Christians are not Israel, he thinks the perpetual covenant is not for Christians. His point fails because it presupposes that Christians are not part of Israel, a cornerstone of his theology. That wrong idea implies that Jesus is not Israel, when the scriptures calls Him Israel (Mat 2:15 cf. Ho 11:1); it ignores that Christ is the King of Israel (John 12:13), and so is part of His sovereign nation. Bob's point here regarding the Sabbath is moot until he proves that Christians are not in the One who is Israel and the King of Israel, and until explains why Paul told Gentiles they were fellow citizens of Israel (Eph 2:19).

Fourth, Bob argues that the Sabbath is a symbolic commandment rather than a moral commandment. He magnifies this point by claiming moral laws are, "... fundamentally moral because they reveal the righteousness of God.” His point fails because the Sabbath commandment reveals the righteousness of God as His sovereignty; therefore, Bob must concede that the Sabbath commandment is indeed a moral commandment. Further, Bob argued that because the Israelites were keeping circumcision in Egypt, and because they presumably were not keeping the Sabbath in Egypt, it somehow means that the Sabbath was a relatively new commandment to them, implying Bob's alleged gap of chapters and years (that ignores audience and authorship). Bob's point ignores the effects of forced labor on one's ability to keep the Sabbath commandment (Ex 1:14 ).

I'll reserve the rest of my argument for now and await any counter-arguments to the points I've made.

 

[Sherman]

Excellent point about the three tiers of law
Laws toward God
Laws toward Man
and Symbolic Laws.

Good show. :up:

 

[genuineoriginal]

This conversation from July 2004 provides a detailed survey of the biblical material on the subject, significantly develops thed issue, and directly addresses whether or not God requires people today to keep the Sabbath.

I missed this show, but have heard other shows where Bob claims that the failure to insist on the validity of the commandment against adultery has lead us down a slippery slope into the immorality rampant today.
Bob doesn't understand that the slippery slope starts with the failure to insist on the validity of the commandment about the Sabbath day.

If Bob does not believe in the validity of the Sabbath commandment for all men today, he has lost the ability to claim the ten commandments as authority for any of the other nine.

 

[keypurr]

I listened to the entire show. Bob's argument fails in a number of significant ways.

First, Bob apparently did not seem to feel it necessary to explain the purpose and meaning of the sabbath. He never mentioned that the seventh day was sanctified, and never argued the day is not still sanctified. He didn't speak of how the Sabbath is evidence of God's sovereignty, the whole point of the commandment. Therefore, Bob appears to believe that, what God sanctifies, man's doctrines and reasoning can somehow unsanctify. The seventh day is still sanctified, and Bob's argument doesn't address that point. In fact, if the Sabbath could be unsanctified, then Christians sanctified by the Spirit can be unsanctified and salvation can be lost. In that sense, argument against the Sabbath commandment is an argument against OSAS, but the Sabbath proves our salvation is irrevocable.

Second, Bob claimed that between Genesis 2:3 and Exodus 16 the sabbath commandment isn't mentioned, and this is supposed to be a significant point. His point fails because it ignores that Moses allegedly authored the first five books; Bob talks in spans of years and chapters, as though the books were not all written by the same man to the same audience trying to communicate the same message. Additionally, Bob argues that Ne 9:14 proves that the Sabbath commandment was first given by Moses. His point is moot because Moses allegedly wrote the first five books of the Bible--we have no earlier authors on record! Further, Jesus said, "The sabbath was made for man." If it was made for man, then it was made for Adam. And since Bob conceded that Moses allegedly wrote the first five books to an audience he gave the law to, he should concede that he meant Abraham kept the Sabbath when he wrote: "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Third, Bob argues the Sabbath is a perpetual covenant between God and Israel, and because Bob thinks that Christians are not Israel, he thinks the perpetual covenant is not for Christians. His point fails because it presupposes that Christians are not part of Israel, a cornerstone of his theology. That wrong idea implies that Jesus is not Israel, when the scriptures calls Him Israel (Mat 2:15 cf. Ho 11:1); it ignores that Christ is the King of Israel (John 12:13), and so is part of His sovereign nation. Bob's point here regarding the Sabbath is moot until he proves that Christians are not in the One who is Israel and the King of Israel, and until explains why Paul told Gentiles they were fellow citizens of Israel (Eph 2:19).

Fourth, Bob argues that the Sabbath is a symbolic commandment rather than a moral commandment. He magnifies this point by claiming moral laws are, "... fundamentally moral because they reveal the righteousness of God.” His point fails because the Sabbath commandment reveals the righteousness of God as His sovereignty; therefore, Bob must concede that the Sabbath commandment is indeed a moral commandment. Further, Bob argued that because the Israelites were keeping circumcision in Egypt, and because they presumably were not keeping the Sabbath in Egypt, it somehow means that the Sabbath was a relatively new commandment to them, implying Bob's alleged gap of chapters and years (that ignores audience and authorship). Bob's point ignores the effects of forced labor on one's ability to keep the Sabbath commandment (Ex 1:14 ).

I'll reserve the rest of my argument for now and await any counter-arguments to the points I've made.

El, I agree with everything you posted. To break his Ten is to sin. Did Jesus not say :Go and sin no more?".
How easy folks forget the one commandment that starts with the word "Remember"

God Bless

 

[Stripe]

First, Bob apparently did not seem to feel it necessary to explain the purpose and meaning of the sabbath. He never mentioned that the seventh day was sanctified, and never argued the day is not still sanctified. He didn't speak of how the Sabbath is evidence of God's sovereignty, the whole point of the commandment. Therefore, Bob appears to believe that, what God sanctifies, man's doctrines and reasoning can somehow unsanctify. The seventh day is still sanctified, and Bob's argument doesn't address that point. In fact, if the Sabbath could be unsanctified, then Christians sanctified by the Spirit can be unsanctified and salvation can be lost. In that sense, argument against the Sabbath commandment is an argument against OSAS, but the Sabbath proves our salvation is irrevocable.

The sabbath has no power of salvation.

Second, Bob claimed that between Genesis 2:3 and Exodus 16 the sabbath commandment isn't mentioned, and this is supposed to be a significant point. His point fails because it ignores that Moses allegedly authored the first five books. Bob talks in spans of years and chapters, as though the books were not all written by the same man to the same audience trying to communicate the same message.

I thought you listened to the show.

He answers this challenge after the 19 minute mark. :idunno:

Additionally, Bob argues that Ne 9:14 proves that the Sabbath commandment was first given by Moses. His point is moot because Moses allegedly wrote the first five books of the Bible--we have no earlier authors on record!

How is "no other authors" evidence against the story that God gave the sabbath to Moses?

Further, Jesus said, "The sabbath was made for man." If it was made for man, then it was made for Adam.

That's ridiculous!

And since Bob conceded that Moses allegedly wrote the first five books to an audience he gave the law to, he should concede that he meant Abraham kept the Sabbath when he wrote: "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Laws change.

Third, Bob argues the Sabbath is a perpetual covenant between God and Israel, and because Bob thinks that Christians are not Israel, he thinks the perpetual covenant is not for Christians. His point fails because it presupposes that Christians are not part of Israel, a cornerstone of his theology. That wrong idea implies that Jesus is not Israel, when the scriptures calls Him Israel (Mat 2:15 cf. Ho 11:1); it ignores that Christ is the King of Israel (John 12:13), and so is part of His sovereign nation. Bob's point here regarding the Sabbath is moot until he proves that Christians are not in the One who is Israel and the King of Israel, and until explains why Paul told Gentiles they were fellow citizens of Israel (Eph 2:19).

Christians are not Jesus.

Fourth, Bob argues that the Sabbath is a symbolic commandment rather than a moral commandment. He magnifies this point by claiming moral laws are, "... fundamentally moral because they reveal the righteousness of God.” His point fails because the Sabbath commandment reveals the righteousness of God as His sovereignty; therefore, Bob must concede that the Sabbath commandment is indeed a moral commandment.

All law can reveal God's righteousness.

Further, Bob argued that because the Israelites were keeping circumcision in Egypt, and because they presumably were not keeping the Sabbath in Egypt, it somehow means that the Sabbath was a relatively new commandment to them, implying Bob's alleged gap of chapters and years (that ignores audience and authorship). Bob's point ignores the effects of forced labor on one's ability to keep the Sabbath commandment (Ex 1:14 ).

Unless you have scripture that says when it was given (other than by Moses) it sounds fair to me that it was given by Moses. Arguing that it could have existed and been overthrown under slavery is not evidence against what was presented.

 

[elohiym]

The sabbath has no power of salvation.

That didn't address my point.

Is the seventh day still sanctified? Yes or no.

He answers this challenge after the 19 minute mark. :idunno:

My impression was that he acknowledged that he believes Moses is the author of the first five books, and didn't address the major point that implies. I was listening carefully and taking notes, but it's possible I missed something. Feel free to sum up his point at that time mark, if you like, or show how it sufficiently counters my point.

How is "no other authors" evidence against the story that God gave the sabbath to Moses?

It is evidence against the assertion that God first gave the seventh-day Sabbath to Moses, as though he never gave it to anyone else before Moses. The first books given to the Israelites were from Moses apparently, so it couldn't have come from anyone else from the prophet's perspective. Obviously the prophet was referring to authorship of the Torah because it was God who actually gave them the Sabbath.

That's ridiculous!

Then you explain what Jesus meant by "the sabbath was made for man." How exactly was the Sabbath made for man that means it was necessarily not made for all men? :idunno:

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Considering that Moses wrote that Abraham kept those laws he gave to Israel, we know the Sabbath was kept before the Mosaic Covenant. It's ridiculous to think that Moses meant Abraham was keeping some other laws than the ones he had given his same audience in another book, for if he did he would have specified that.

Laws change.

Supra.

Christians are not Jesus.

Christ Jesus is God's Israel, and her King. Christians are in Him, and so are in Israel and her King. I provided scripture references in my fist post above.

All law can reveal God's righteousness.

That ignores my point: by Bob's standard that he gave, the Sabbath commandment is a moral commandment. In other words, he cannot make an argument based on it not being a moral commandment because it is. Therefore, if some Christians believe moral commandments are still somehow binding on them (e.g. thou shalt not steal), they should be keeping the Sabbath, too.

Unless you have scripture that says when it was given (other than by Moses) it sounds fair to me that it was given by Moses. Arguing that it could have existed and been overthrown under slavery is not evidence against what was presented.

Moses wrote that Abraham kept Gods commandments. The hypothesis that makes the fewest new assumptions is that Abraham kept those same ten commandments thought so important that they were placed inside the Ark, while, in contrast, the Book of the Law with the Levitical ordinances was kept on the outside of the Ark.

 

[Stripe]

That didn't address my point.

I think it did. :idunno:

Is the seventh day still sanctified? Yes or no.

Is it still considered important by God? Sure.

My impression was that he acknowledged that he believes Moses is the author of the first five books, and didn't address the major point that implies. I was listening carefully and taking notes, but it's possible I missed something. Feel free to sum up his point at that time mark, if you like, or show how it sufficiently counters my point.

Your point seemed to be that Moses wrote the first five books all to the same audience. Pastor Enyart's response was, "Yeah, I know".

It is evidence against the assertion that God first gave the seventh-day Sabbath to Moses, as though he never gave it to anyone else before Moses. The first books given to the Israelites were from Moses apparently, so it couldn't have come from anyone else from the prophet's perspective. Obviously the prophet was referring to authorship of the Torah because it was God who actually gave them the Sabbath.

I'm not following.

Then you explain what Jesus meant by "the sabbath was made for man." How exactly was the Sabbath made for man that means it was necessarily not made for all men?

What's to explain? It was made for man, but it wasn't made before some men had lived.

Considering that Moses wrote that Abraham kept those laws he gave to Israel, we know the Sabbath was kept before the Mosaic Covenant.

Unless the sabbath had not yet been given.

It's ridiculous to think that Moses meant Abraham was keeping some other laws than the ones he had given his same audience in another book, for if he did he would have specified that.

We have laws that God had given that Abraham could follow.

Christ Jesus is God's Israel, and her King. Christians are in Him, and so are in Israel and her King. I provided scripture references in my fist post above.

No, I think something different is going on.

by Bob's standard that he gave, the Sabbath commandment is a moral commandment.

How is Pastor Enyart's standard one for the sabbath being a moral command when he explicitly states that it is not a moral command?

Moses wrote that Abraham kept Gods commandments. The hypothesis that makes the fewest new assumptions is that Abraham kept those same ten commandments thought so important that they were placed inside the Ark, while, in contrast, the Book of the Law with the Levitical ordinances was kept on the outside of the Ark.

Who do you think the ten commandments were first given to and what is your evidence for that belief?

 

[Jacob]

What if Moses didn't write the Torah? What then?

Evidence: Moses' death is recorded in the Torah.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.

 

[elohiym]

What if Moses didn't write the Torah? What then?

Draw a line through Ex 24:4 and pray the rest of the book is correct?

 

[Jacob]

Draw a line through Ex 24:4 and pray the rest of the book is correct?

I don't understand. I believe Exodus 24:4. Do you believe Exodus 24:4 is talking about the Torah?

book of Moses

 

[DonTheology]

The Sabbath is a moral law.
The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was a moral question. Its the difference between God and Satan
God = Life; Good; Sanctification; Rest.
Satan = Death; Bad; Unholy; Unrest.

All of the bible is about this moral question, whether life or death is being promoted by each character. Every narrative retells this theme. You are either with God doing good and attached to His life, or you are separated (separating) from Him and are going to die.

During the time of Jesus the scriptures we now call the The Old Testament was what was read in their worship. By this time the primary place to hear it was in the synagogues. The Sabbath was clearly operational at this time. So there was no issue as to whether God intended it to be kept or if His people understood this.

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

So it it has to be demonstrated in the New Testament if this commandment was no longer required.

Jesus and the Sabbath
Matt 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Is Jesus breaking the Sabbath, or is he proclaiming to be God? Note verses 6 and 8.
The Sabbath is about rest in God. The disciples need was to be sustained by God, this is what Jesus met both their spiritual and immediate physical need. He was teaching the Pharisees about mercy and how God has been merciful to them. Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
He showed himself as God in his last statement. "...But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: ..." Exo 20:10, the Jews would have understood this claim and the fourth commandment.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Mar 3:1 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
:2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
:3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

Notice the theme between good and evil. This is the moral question concerning the Sabbath.
The Pharisees kept the Sabbath in form only they had not received rest with God, themselves, neither did they give it to others. They had hatred, jealousy and murder in their hearts.

Mar 3:6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.
Mar 3:7 But Jesus withdrew himself with his disciples to the sea: and a great multitude from Galilee followed him, and from Judaea, (Compare John 5:18.)

Sadly, it actually ended with Jesus (God) their salvation withdrawing himself from them.

These narratives and all the other Sabbath discourses in the gospels, does not teach a breaking of the Sabbath, rather that we must relieve each others burdens therefore given each other rest with God ourselves and others keeping it holy.

 

[way 2 go]

These narratives and all the other Sabbath discourses in the gospels, does not teach a breaking of the Sabbath, rather that we must relieve each others burdens therefore given each other rest with God ourselves and others keeping it holy.

the Sabbath was not for gentiles

Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.

Do you have God in the old testament saying put the philistines to death for not keeping the sabbath ?


Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
:carryon:

 

[Lighthouse]

The Sabbath is a moral law.
The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was a moral question. Its the difference between God and Satan
God = Life; Good; Sanctification; Rest.
Satan = Death; Bad; Unholy; Unrest.

All of the bible is about this moral question, whether life or death is being promoted by each character. Every narrative retells this theme. You are either with God doing good and attached to His life, or you are separated (separating) from Him and are going to die.

During the time of Jesus the scriptures we now call the The Old Testament was what was read in their worship. By this time the primary place to hear it was in the synagogues. The Sabbath was clearly operational at this time. So there was no issue as to whether God intended it to be kept or if His people understood this.

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

So it it has to be demonstrated in the New Testament if this commandment was no longer required.

Jesus and the Sabbath
Matt 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Is Jesus breaking the Sabbath, or is he proclaiming to be God? Note verses 6 and 8.
The Sabbath is about rest in God. The disciples need was to be sustained by God, this is what Jesus met both their spiritual and immediate physical need. He was teaching the Pharisees about mercy and how God has been merciful to them. Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
He showed himself as God in his last statement. "...But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: ..." Exo 20:10, the Jews would have understood this claim and the fourth commandment.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Mar 3:1 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
:2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
:3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

Notice the theme between good and evil. This is the moral question concerning the Sabbath.
The Pharisees kept the Sabbath in form only they had not received rest with God, themselves, neither did they give it to others. They had hatred, jealousy and murder in their hearts.

Mar 3:6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.
Mar 3:7 But Jesus withdrew himself with his disciples to the sea: and a great multitude from Galilee followed him, and from Judaea, (Compare John 5:18.)

Sadly, it actually ended with Jesus (God) their salvation withdrawing himself from them.

These narratives and all the other Sabbath discourses in the gospels, does not teach a breaking of the Sabbath, rather that we must relieve each others burdens therefore given each other rest with God ourselves and others keeping it holy.

What about Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, and the Sabbath?

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
-Colossians 2:16-17

 

[DonTheology]

Let no man Judge you:

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Seventh Day Adventist believe that Jesus Christ alone Judges the world.
These verses simple teach that you belong to Jesus Christ and are only judged by him. Do these verses give you liberty to break the Sabbath?
Paul writes from his experience. He was pusecuting the church, thinking he was doing it for God, when God was gracious to him. He was purely save by grace and not by anything he had done. Only the blood of Christ blots of sin.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

1 Cor 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

1 Cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

What role does obedience play?

Matt 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Its like asking yourself "do I not kill someone because I might get caught?," or "do I not kill someone because I love them."
____

Who is the Judge?

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
... :21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
... :26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
... :27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matt 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Luke 12:13 And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.
:14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?
:15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

Eccl 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Types and shadows
Bob rightly identified that there were laws that like not mixing materials pointed to Christ. Every in the sanctuary and temple servicespointed to him:
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matt 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. ... :21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Exodus 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

The whole system was constructed around the word of God. The sequence started with God orally on Mount Sinai; then written on stone by God; thenthe ark was to hold it; then sanctuary; then the court yard etc; then the High priest. Everything in it was Christ/Messiah. It works both ways because every thing in it also was how we relate to him. Each service had a role and a certain fulfilment.
Has the Sabbath been separated from obligation than the other nine?

No New Testament teachings that the day had changed.
No instructions from Jesus Christ
Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Acts 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
... 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
... :44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
:10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
:11 Therefore loosing from Troas, we came with a straight course to Samothracia, and the next day to Neapolis;
:12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days.
:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

These verses give no indication that the Sabbath was abolished, nor that a new one had been establish.

The commandments of God

Matt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Some people have said that Jesus never mentioned the Sabbath, but he didn't mention any of the first four. That's because they were the part that was missing in the enquirers life. He called Jesus good, but would he call him God?

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1Co 7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Who does Satan hate?

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[DonTheology]

the Sabbath was not for gentiles

Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.

Do you have God in the old testament saying put the philistines to death for not keeping the sabbath ?

Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
:carryon:

I can only reply with these quotes:

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ***(??? donkey) may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.
Lev 16:29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:

***(??? donkey) is there a block on certain words? this should be be 'a-s-s'

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Remember who is instituting the Sabbath, its not man made.
Who is Israel? Are they literal or spiritual?

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Deut 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Matt 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Do you have God in the old testament saying put the philistines to death for not keeping the sabbath ?

What is the emphasis here, is it a relief or a burden?
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Is the purpose to save or to kill?

In the New Testament many verses are spent teaching how Jesus kept the Sabbath, not breaking it. The Pharisees thought they where keeping it and that it was Jesus who was in the transgression, but it was the other way around. It represents rest. Being restored to God and having rest from Satan's clutches.
Luke 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[way 2 go]

Originally Posted by way 2 go
the Sabbath was not for gentiles

I can only reply with these quotes:

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Lev 16:29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:

so not for gentiles

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Remember who is instituting the Sabbath, its not man made.
Who is Israel? Are they literal or spiritual?

also remember who Jesus is talking to
Mat 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

literal.
circumcision was not a suggestion either

Gen 17:12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring,
Gen 17:13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Deut 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Matt 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Israel are God's chosen people
Deu 7:6 "For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Israel has been cut off till the time of the gentiles is fulfilled

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

don't confuse the dipensations

What is the emphasis here, is it a relief or a burden?
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Is the purpose to save or to kill?

In the New Testament many verses are spent teaching how Jesus kept the Sabbath, not breaking it. The Pharisees thought they where keeping it and that it was Jesus who was in the transgression, but it was the other way around. It represents rest. Being restored to God and having rest from Satan's clutches.
Luke 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I have shown that the sabbath never was for gentiles
DT you still have not shown that the sabbath is for gentiles today

 

[Lighthouse]

Seventh Day Adventist believe...

You're SDA? Oh, brother.:doh:

P.S.
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
-Romans 6:14

...where there is no law there is no transgression.
-Romans 4:15

 

[JosephR]

Bob debates Keeping the Sabbath

Was Cain a Jew? he did sacrifice unto The Lord.... Was Noah? Was Job?

Noah knew what clean an unclean animals were..... How did He know that before the Law?


On the seventh day God made the 7th day holy... And it has been ever since ....

And God spoke thru His prophet Isaiah that all will come and bow and worship the Father on the sabbath day... Future event...

It is no question if the Sabbath is holy or made for Jew or Gentile.. It is a matter between you and God to be obedient or be a wicked generation.


Posted from the TOL App!

 

[JosephR]

I listened to the entire show. Bob's argument fails in a number of significant ways.



First, Bob apparently did not seem to feel it necessary to explain the purpose and meaning of the sabbath. He never mentioned that the seventh day was sanctified, and never argued the day is not still sanctified. He didn't speak of how the Sabbath is evidence of God's sovereignty, the whole point of the commandment. Therefore, Bob appears to believe that, what God sanctifies, man's doctrines and reasoning can somehow unsanctify. The seventh day is still sanctified, and Bob's argument doesn't address that point. In fact, if the Sabbath could be unsanctified, then Christians sanctified by the Spirit can be unsanctified and salvation can be lost. In that sense, argument against the Sabbath commandment is an argument against OSAS, but the Sabbath proves our salvation is irrevocable.



Second, Bob claimed that between Genesis 2:3 and Exodus 16 the sabbath commandment isn't mentioned, and this is supposed to be a significant point. His point fails because it ignores that Moses allegedly authored the first five books; Bob talks in spans of years and chapters, as though the books were not all written by the same man to the same audience trying to communicate the same message. Additionally, Bob argues that Ne 9:14 proves that the Sabbath commandment was first given by Moses. His point is moot because Moses allegedly wrote the first five books of the Bible--we have no earlier authors on record! Further, Jesus said, "The sabbath was made for man." If it was made for man, then it was made for Adam. And since Bob conceded that Moses allegedly wrote the first five books to an audience he gave the law to, he should concede that he meant Abraham kept the Sabbath when he wrote: "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."



Third, Bob argues the Sabbath is a perpetual covenant between God and Israel, and because Bob thinks that Christians are not Israel, he thinks the perpetual covenant is not for Christians. His point fails because it presupposes that Christians are not part of Israel, a cornerstone of his theology. That wrong idea implies that Jesus is not Israel, when the scriptures calls Him Israel (Mat 2:15 cf. Ho 11:1); it ignores that Christ is the King of Israel (John 12:13), and so is part of His sovereign nation. Bob's point here regarding the Sabbath is moot until he proves that Christians are not in the One who is Israel and the King of Israel, and until explains why Paul told Gentiles they were fellow citizens of Israel (Eph 2:19).



Fourth, Bob argues that the Sabbath is a symbolic commandment rather than a moral commandment. He magnifies this point by claiming moral laws are, "... fundamentally moral because they reveal the righteousness of God.” His point fails because the Sabbath commandment reveals the righteousness of God as His sovereignty; therefore, Bob must concede that the Sabbath commandment is indeed a moral commandment. Further, Bob argued that because the Israelites were keeping circumcision in Egypt, and because they presumably were not keeping the Sabbath in Egypt, it somehow means that the Sabbath was a relatively new commandment to them, implying Bob's alleged gap of chapters and years (that ignores audience and authorship). Bob's point ignores the effects of forced labor on one's ability to keep the Sabbath commandment (Ex 1:14 ).



I'll reserve the rest of my argument for now and await any counter-arguments to the points I've made.

The sabbath was observed before the Law was givin... On the 6 the day you will gather twice as much manna...


Posted from the TOL App!