Bob Debates Atheist Reggie Finley Pt 1

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Jefferson

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Bob Debates Atheist Reggie Finley Pt 1

This is the show from Monday March 26th, 2007.

SUMMARY:

* The Infidel Guy: also known as atheist Reggie Finley, discusses the existence of God with Bob. This debate lasted 4 hours, and we'll air another 30 min. segment tomorrow!

Today's Resource: If you enjoyed the short segment of today's atheism debate, you'd probably really have fun reading this fascinating debate, Does God Exist? Bob Enyart vs. Zakath!
 

amjiva

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It seems Mr. Enyart believes in a very sectarian, limited god. One who does not have overall control and who is unaware of what will happen in the future. In other words, a god who is limited in power and subject to relative time. Oddly enough, Mr. Enyart says that he goes against a Greek conception of god, but actually his conception is very much in line with the Greek gods who were limited in power (usually exhibiting some amount of power in some particular aspect of the world or universe) and who were not in full knowledge of the future.

Mr. Enyart only addresses two theistic philosophies: fatalist theism and open theism - basically implying that one either believes all events are predestined and thus automatically God's will, or that one believes that God hasn't predestined anything and doesn't know the future exactly but is thus saved from being responsible for seemingly "evil" actions or events. This argument is fallacious because there is another option. It is possible for a supreme being to have knowledge of the future, yet not be directly responsible for every occuring event in the universe. The presumption that Mr. Enyart makes - the only presumption wherefrom a mutually exclusive situation arises in the nature of God - is that of the idea that God creates according to His sole desires. If we say that God creates everything (that is created) with only His desires in mind, then if He is all-knowing, it must be logically admitted that all events and outcomes are this omniscient God's predestined plan. In order to avoid this reasoning, Mr. Enyart eliminates the idea that God is all-knowing. But clearly there is another option, as I have mentioned. Instead of eliminating God's omniscience, we can eliminate the idea that God creates solely for His desire. And actually, this makes most sense. Simply ask yourselves, what fulfillment can an eternal and infallible God find in created, temporal, decaying material objects? I think the answer is obvious. A Supreme Being would find no fulfillment in such inferior manifestations. And actually, this Supreme God would only take enjoyment in eternal things. This is a key to understanding why God cares about individual souls. It invariably shows - and backed up by the testament of religious texts like the Bible, Koran and Vedas - that individual souls must also be eternal beings because God's concern for them is continually exhibited. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the reconciling point. After we conclude that God would not create according to His sole desires, the next obvious question is, "then whose desires constitute creation?" Now that we understand eternal souls to exist, we automatically have a second party that can fill that obligation.

I hope everyone will give this some serious thought. I look forward to all the questions and arguments. And I don't know if Mr. Enyart frequents his own forums, but I would definitely like to deliberate with him on these ideas and see what we come out with.

To give everyone some background information, I grew up siding with my father on religious and philosophical issues, which were more or less atheist or agnostic. At around the age of 18 I began studying various religious philosophies and for just over the last four years have been studying and practicing Vedanta as per the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition. I have frequented Reginald Finley's (Infidel Guy) website and after hearing this first portion of his and Bob Enyart's discussion, I have become very interested in discussing these issues with Mr Enyart as well as others who support his philosophy.

Hare Krishna & God bless!
 

Adam

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Why are you not as concerned to discuss things with Reggie Finley who denies your god as well?

and as for your statement
amjiva said:
It is possible for a supreme being to have knowledge of the future, yet not be directly responsible for every occuring event in the universe.
Simply wrong. God will not be a liar. For Him to know everything that will happen would mean that the agents involved in those future events would have no other choices but to do that which God knew would happen.
 

Johnny

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Adambassador said:
Simply wrong. God will not be a liar. For Him to know everything that will happen would mean that the agents involved in those future events would have no other choices but to do that which God knew would happen.
Not if God's foreknowledge is a result of Him existing outside of the human timeline rather than some omnipotent insight. In that case both free will and foreknowledge are preserved.
 

fool

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First installment of the debate was a nerf toss, sorting out open theist ideas from calvinists.
Hope the screaming and "you hate God"ing start soon.
 

Vaquero45

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Johnny said:
Not if God's foreknowledge is a result of Him existing outside of the human timeline rather than some omnipotent insight. In that case both free will and foreknowledge are preserved.

How do you figure this? (straight question, I'm curious to see your reasoning)

Would you say since He is outside of time, He is able to "fast-forward" the world and see what free will choices will be made, and then "rewind" back to whatever point and set up a contingency, or throw in a prophesy?
 

amjiva

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Adambassador said:
Why are you not as concerned to discuss things with Reggie Finley who denies your god as well?

and as for your statementSimply wrong. God will not be a liar. For Him to know everything that will happen would mean that the agents involved in those future events would have no other choices but to do that which God knew would happen.

You're going to have to show where I am "simply wrong" instead of just making that assertion. On the relative platform we have choices, and we make them to the best of our knowledge and ability. In the meantime, God is absolute and beyond relative time. He knows what we choose before we choose it, yet this does not mean that God is thus forcing us to choose one way and not another. God's having, what is to us, foreknowledge does not constitute Him exhibiting force against free will.
 

amjiva

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Johnny said:
Not if God's foreknowledge is a result of Him existing outside of the human timeline rather than some omnipotent insight. In that case both free will and foreknowledge are preserved.

I agree that God is outside or transcendental to our relative time, but I think that even if we were to say that God knows our future due to some omnipotent insight, that still would not necessarily constitute the end of our free will. Then again, perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean by "omnipotent insight."
 

SUTG

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Vaquero45 said:
How do you figure this? (straight question, I'm curious to see your reasoning)

Would you say since He is outside of time, He is able to "fast-forward" the world and see what free will choices will be made, and then "rewind" back to whatever point and set up a contingency, or throw in a prophesy?

It took me a while to understand how this could be, but now I agree that frewill and foreknowledge are compatible.

It is easier to understand if you realize that someone can have knowledge of what you did yesterday, and this does not mean you did it without freewill.

It is more difficult to realize that someone (a god) could have knowledge of what you will do tomorrow without violating your free will to do it.
 

Nathon Detroit

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SUTG said:
It took me a while to understand how this could be, but now I agree that frewill and foreknowledge are compatible.
Freewill and foreknowledge ARE compatible.

yet...

Freewill and EXHAUSTIVE foreknowledge are not compatible.

It is easier to understand if you realize that someone can have knowledge of what you did yesterday, and this does not mean you did it without freewill.
Knowledge of the past isn't by definition "FOREknowledge", instead that might be called "PASTknowledge" or simply "knowledge". The "FORE" in foreknowledge stands for beFORE, were you aware of that? :freak:

It is more difficult to realize that someone (a god) could have knowledge of what you will do tomorrow without violating your free will to do it.
And exhaustive foreknowledge adds yet another element to the mix.
 

Servo

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amjiva said:
What is "exhaustive foreknowledge" exactly, and how is it not compatible with free will?

Basically "exhaustive foreknowledge" is stating that the future is closed and every event that has ever occurred was set up and put forth by God.

Free will is synonymous with the word "will". To have a will is to have the ability to do otherwise. So having a will is not compatible with exhaustive foreknowledge where every decision made by man is already planned out.
 

amjiva

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Shimei said:
Basically "exhaustive foreknowledge" is stating that the future is closed and every event that has ever occurred was set up and put forth by God.

Free will is synonymous with the word "will". To have a will is to have the ability to do otherwise. So having a will is not compatible with exhaustive foreknowledge where every decision made by man is already planned out.

I see. And I agree. But I also think it is a matter of perspective. God is coming from the absolute perspective where all things are known - past, present and future - whereas we are coming from the relative perspective where, although known by God, we must make day-to-day decisions to the best of our knowledge. The real significance in the grand scheme of things is not whether we turn right or left, but deals directly with the connection we make with the eternal God.
 

Servo

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amjiva said:
I see. And I agree. But I also think it is a matter of perspective. God is coming from the absolute perspective where all things are known - past, present and future - whereas we are coming from the relative perspective where, although known by God, we must make day-to-day decisions to the best of our knowledge. The real significance in the grand scheme of things is not whether we turn right or left, but deals directly with the connection we make with the eternal God.

If God is outside of time, you can't have it both ways. God of course knows ever thing there is to know. But to know every future event, He would have to have been involved with the planning of those events. How else could future events be planned for God to have the ability to see the future?

Quick question, if God is outside of time, then what time is it? Is Christ still on the cross? Is Moses parting the Red Sea? Is Noah building an ark?
 

Bob Enyart

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amjiva and SUTG

amjiva and SUTG

SUTG: [Simple Foreknowledge] is easier to understand if you realize that someone can have knowledge of what you did yesterday, and this does not mean you did it without freewill.

No it's not. SUTG, that's a nonsense claim that ignores the fundamental difference between the past and the future. Knight, thanks for pointing that out to SUTG.

amjiva, I realize that you have no obligation to follow my writings or teachings, but for more than 20 years I've taught on this subject regarding the future. However, you overstated your case. I did not I imply that there could only be two options, Predestined, or NOT predestined. Of course I am aware of what Christians call Simple Foreknowledge, a supposed ability to see the future without having predestined it. There is no such ability. But regardless (whether there is or not), I did NOT imply that such a theory does not exist. If you listen to the discussion more carefully, you will see that you have run with a presupposition, and heard what you expected to hear.

Even if we Ignore all the intellectual gymnastics necessary to believe in "Simple Foreknowledge," even SF does not minimize the truth that in such a reality, the Future is Utterly Settled, and not even God could do anything to alter that fatalistic future; and certainly therefore, neither could you. Of course, this is all nonsense.

But thanks for participating!

-Bob Enyart
 

SUTG

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Bob Enyart said:
No it's not. SUTG, that's a nonsense claim that ignores the fundamental difference between the past and the future. Knight, thanks for pointing that out to SUTG.

Yeah, you're right the future is different from the past. Thanks for clearing that up.

You don't by chance have a doctorate in Philosophy, do you?
 

Nathon Detroit

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I just finished listening to this show.... excellent!!! I give it five thumbs up... :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:
 

amjiva

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Shimei said:
If God is outside of time, you can't have it both ways. God of course knows ever thing there is to know. But to know every future event, He would have to have been involved with the planning of those events. How else could future events be planned for God to have the ability to see the future?

Quick question, if God is outside of time, then what time is it? Is Christ still on the cross? Is Moses parting the Red Sea? Is Noah building an ark?

(bold emphasis mine)

Please explain to me why God would be required to have been involved with the planning of the events that are to us as future.

As for your first question, I think the mistake you are making is in thinking that God is sitting at our point in time and that He requires to look into the future, similar to the way a fortune teller supposedly does. I am saying that God is completely transcendental to time. He does not have to look into the future just as He does not have to look into the past. What we define as past, present and future is all one to God. In other words, God has simultaneous access to all points in time - not that He must endeavor to "see the future". I hope you follow.

To the remaining questions, the answer is: all time. For God, it is all time, or eternal time. His platform of time is absolute and thus has no sequential bearing on any points within our relative time. In other words, if one were to plot two points in God's absolute time, each one would be as equally close and as equally far away from any and all points in our relative time. I believe the Bible illustrates this transcendence when it states that our day is with God as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. Some have interpreted this to be a one way conversion, but the reverse statement is included. Therefore it is to show that God's time is not in sequence to ours, but that He is transcendental.
 
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