Believing: Is it done BEFORE or AFTER one is in Christ?

[Samie]

Majority of Christian preachers teach BEFORE.

I believe that to teach such is to teach against what Christ Himself taught. Our Savior told His disciples that APART from Him they can do NOTHING (John 15:5). So, if one can BELIEVE, then he can do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING and that simply proves he is already in Christ PRIOR to believing. Hence, only those already in Christ can believe.

Quite difficult to handle? Any doctrine or teaching need to pass the test of Scriptures. And the teaching that people need to first believe to be in Christ seem not able to. Yet this is what most preachers teach.

 

[marhig]

Majority of Christian preachers teach BEFORE.

I believe that to teach such is to teach against what Christ Himself taught. Our Savior told His disciples that APART from Him they can do NOTHING (John 15:5). So, if one can BELIEVE, then he can do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING and that simply proves he is already in Christ PRIOR to believing. Hence, only those already in Christ can believe.

Quite difficult to handle? Any doctrine or teaching need to pass the test of Scriptures. And the teaching that people need to first believe to be in Christ seem not able to. Yet this is what most preachers teach.

Romans 10

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

First we hear the word of God, and then we have a choice, believe it or not. And if we believe, then as we obey, we get know Christ more and more as the holy spirit changes our hearts to be more like his.

How can you be in Christ without believing in him. You can't, first you hear, then you choose to believe and then you get to know him.

I think the doing nothing means not having the strength to overcome and you can't bare fruit. How can we produce the fruits of the spirit if we don't have Christ? We can't, and that's what he means by without him we can do nothing.

 

[Samie]

So when Christ said NOTHING, He really means SOMETHING to you?

 

[marhig]

So when Christ said NOTHING, He really means SOMETHING to you?

I believe that when Christ said nothing he meant everything has to be done through him. He is the way, the truth and the life, his way is the only way to follow.

It is impossible to know Christ if we have never heard, read or seen anything about him, how can we do anything or know anything or do something, if we haven't heard anything at all?

 

[Samie]

I believe that when Christ said nothing he meant everything has to be done through him. He is the way, the truth and the life, his way is the only way to follow.

Precisely. Hence believing can only be done through Him. So, only those in Him can believe. For how can one believe through Him when he is not in Him?

It is impossible to know Christ if we have never heard, read or seen anything about him, how can we do anything or know anything or do something, if we haven't heard anything at all?

Correct. And to hear about Him simply means one is already spiritually alive instead of spiritually dead, and hence already in Christ because He is our life (Col 3:4).

 

[Samie]

To teach that people MUST first believe so they can be in Christ is to teach:

1. That prior to believing people are NOT in Christ.

2. That while APART from Christ people can BELIEVE and hence can do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING.

3. That while APART from Christ people already have faith because they can believe.

4. That unless man first puts into the basket his share of the deal, he could not be in Christ.

All FOUR above-listed are against the teachings of our Saviour and Lord:

1. If prior to believing people are not in Christ, then people starts life NOT in Christ; and to be NOT in Christ is to be lost and hence people start life already lost. This is against what Christ Himself taught in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son. All three started out NOT lost. Before the sheep got lost it was with its shepherd; before the coin was lost, it was with its owner; before the son went lost, he was with his father. So with us. We started life NOT lost, and to be NOT lost is to be in Christ.

2. If while APART from Christ people can BELIEVE then they can do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING. This is against what Christ told His disciples that while APART from Him they can do NOTHING.

3. If while APART from Christ people already have faith because they can believe, then people are able to bear fruit APART from Christ because faith is fruit of the Spirit. This is against what Christ Himself taught that no one can bear fruit UNLESS the branch is attached to the Vine.

4. If unless man first puts into the basket his share of the deal, he could not be in Christ, then salvation is works-based. This is against what Jesus taught that no one can come to Him UNLESS the Father draws him and therefore the credit of being in Christ is the Father's and the Son's and NOT man's.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Majority of Christian preachers teach BEFORE.

I believe that to teach such is to teach against what Christ Himself taught. Our Savior told His disciples that APART from Him they can do NOTHING (John 15:5). So, if one can BELIEVE, then he can do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING and that simply proves he is already in Christ PRIOR to believing. Hence, only those already in Christ can believe.

Quite difficult to handle? Any doctrine or teaching need to pass the test of Scriptures. And the teaching that people need to first believe to be in Christ seem not able to. Yet this is what most preachers teach.

Then, why does Paul say we MUST place our faith in Christ to receive eternal life?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Are you a Calvinist Samie?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Romans 10

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Nice Scripture verse choice.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Precisely. Hence believing can only be done through Him. So, only those in Him can believe. For how can one believe through Him when he is not in Him?

Correct. And to hear about Him simply means one is already spiritually alive instead of spiritually dead, and hence already in Christ because He is our life (Col 3:4).

Myriads of people HEAR about Him, however, not all come to Christ in faith.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

To teach that people MUST first believe so they can be in Christ is to teach:

That prior to believing people are NOT in Christ.

First we see that salvation is "in Christ Jesus":

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).​

We also know that in order to be saved a person must believe in the Lord Jesus, as witnessed by the answer given by Paul and those with him here:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Therefore, we can understand that no one is "in Christ" until they believe.

 

[Samie]

Then, why does Paul say we MUST place our faith in Christ to receive eternal life?

Correct.

First, God enabled us by drawing us and fashioning us into the body of His Son - the Vine, so that we - the branches - can bear fruit. Being in Christ, God made us bear fruit called faith, so we can believe.

Believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief, doable only by those already in Christ, and is to be done now here in this world. Receiving eternal life is yet future, in the world to come (Mark 10:30).

Those who REFUSE to believe, having been overcome by the evil of unbelief instead of overcoming it, Christ will blot out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).

And Samie is NOT a Calvinist, GM. Samie teaches that God saved Adam through Christ (Acts 4:12) that same day he fell into sin, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ.

Calvinists teach the exact opposite of what Samie is teaching. They teach that people are born dead in sin, hence born NOT in Christ.

 

[Samie]

Myriads of people HEAR about Him, however, not all come to Christ in faith.

Yes.

And Christ will blot them out from the book of life, effectively dismembering them from His Body to which God fashioned them into, forever expelling them from the family of God, and will have their portion in the lake of fire.

 

[Samie]

First we see that salvation is "in Christ Jesus":

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).​

We also know that in order to be saved a person must believe in the Lord Jesus, as witnessed by the answer given by Paul and those with him here:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Therefore, we can understand that no one is "in Christ" until they believe.

Your understanding, sorry to say, is incorrect.

Only those in Christ can believe, because only they can bear the fruit called faith people use to believe.

You are teaching that people can believe while yet APART from Christ Who said only those in Him can bear fruit (John 15:4, 5), among which is faith. Your teaching is diametrically opposed to what Christ Himself taught.

 

[Samie]

Therefore, we can understand that no one is "in Christ" until they believe.

And that's cart before the horse.

NO one can believe UNLESS he has faith. No one can have faith UNLESS he has fruit of the Spirit. No one can bear fruit UNLESS he is "in Christ". Therefore, believing is DOABLE only by those who are already in Christ because only they can bear the fruit called faith which they can then use to believe.

Sadly, most preachers preach what Jerry preaches.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Correct.

First, God enabled us by drawing us and fashioning us into the body of His Son - the Vine, so that we - the branches - can bear fruit. Being in Christ, God made us bear fruit called faith, so we can believe.

Believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief, doable only by those already in Christ, and is to be done now here in this world. Receiving eternal life is yet future, in the world to come (Mark 10:30).

Those who REFUSE to believe, having been overcome by the evil of unbelief instead of overcoming it, Christ will blot out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).

And Samie is NOT a Calvinist, GM. Samie teaches that God saved Adam through Christ (Acts 4:12) that same day he fell into sin, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ.

Calvinists teach the exact opposite of what Samie is teaching. They teach that people are born dead in sin, hence born NOT in Christ.

Why does Samie speak in the "Third Person?" Sounds like Samie has a screw loose in Samie's head.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yes.

And Christ will blot them out from the book of life, effectively dismembering them from His Body to which God fashioned them into, forever expelling them from the family of God, and will have their portion in the lake of fire.

Samie is confused. GM hopes Samie will receive a reality check in the mail.

 

[Samie]

Why does Samie speak in the "Third Person?" Sounds like Samie has a screw loose in Samie's head.

Thank you for your kind words, brother.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Thank you for your kind words, brother.

Don't mention it Samie. Oops, you already did.

 

[Samie]

Samie is confused.

Really?

So how come you failed in refuting his position no matter how hard you tried?