Be / do good because "you're told to"

[pqmomba8]

...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.

 

[turbosixx]

...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.

I hope your living life to the fullest and getting the most out of it you can.

 

[serpentdove]

...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.

You are your own god (Ge 3:5). :idunno: Unfortunately, this is isn't your universe. :juggle: You don't rule and reign (Eze 18:4). Don't know what your idol is (Ex 20:17). Don't care. Knock yourself out (Re 22:11). :devil: Payday someday (Ga 6:7). :burnlib:

 

[serpentdove]

I hope your living life to the fullest and getting the most out of it you can.

Whatever he loves more than God--I hope he has it until it comes out of his nostrils (Nu 11:20, Mk 7:21, 22).

Jesus is coming soon (1 Thess 5:2). :jump: Good news for us. Bad news for them. opcorn: We get relief (2 Thess 1:7). :straight: They get retribution (2 Thess 1:8). :burnlib:

 

[pqmomba8]

Love the non-responses! But would love to hear from someone who has actually put some coherent thought into the subject matter.

 

[turbosixx]

Love the non-responses! But would love to hear from someone who has actually put some coherent thought into the subject matter.

That was my first thought. If you do not believe in God, then I assume you do not foresee an afterlife. If there is no afterlife then your whole existence is while you breath. I would think that if this life is all I had I would make it the best I could.

If there is no God, the existence of this earth in relation to the universe and our life will be like a match that is struck and burns for a short while then goes out.

 

[serpentdove]

Love the non-responses! But would love to hear from someone who has actually put some coherent thought into the subject matter.

:dizzy:

"Love your suit." ~ Hannibal Lecter, Silence of the Lambs Matt. 25:46

 

[serpentdove]

"...If you do not believe in God, then I assume you do not foresee an afterlife."

He does (Eccl 3:11).

"If there is no afterlife then your whole existence is while you breath. I would think that if this life is all I had I would make it the best I could."

What else do they have? Heb 11:25

"If there is no God, the existence of this earth in relation to the universe and our life will be like a match that is struck and burns for a short while then goes out."

Something like that (Jas 4:14).

 

[PureX]

Doing "good" because of a fear of punishment is really just selfishness pretending to be good. Spiritually, it's meaningless. But doing "good" because you believe in the value of goodness: you believe that doing good multiplies the good in the world, and makes the lives of everyone, better; this is true goodness. And this is spiritually honest and uplifting.

It's why God doesn't punish us and force us to do good. "He" knows it's spiritually meaningless unless we do it for it's own sake.

 

[Lon]

...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.

I think you were just irritated. "Be good" is a fine statement. It is not a way to earn God's grace. I think "because I said so" or "because you are supposed to and know it" are fine reasons for behaving. I even think "because you'll go to jail (punishment)" is fine.

As far as Christianity, we don't obey to 'get heaven.'



After that, I'd correct a few of your summations about scripture but will that for another time. I think it simply enough to say that I don't believe you are correct regarding those Old Testament books concerning OT Jews. I believe for them, the prescription was correct.

 

[serpentdove]

"Doing "good" because of a fear of punishment is really just selfishness pretending to be good."

Wanting not to go to hell doesn't cut it. Those who do not love the Lord and trust in him aren't going to be with him in eternity (Mk 12:30, 1 Co 16:22).

"Spiritually, it's meaningless."

It is. Don't bother. He'll have all of you or he'll have none of you (Ex 20:5). Oprah learned that God is jealous and walked away from him.

"...God doesn't punish us and force us to do good. "He" knows it's spiritually meaningless unless we do it for it's own sake."

Thanks Santa. We do right because it is right (Re 15:3)--we live to please him not man (Ac 5:29, Mt 5:16).

 

[aikido7]

"...so many tears of blood
have fell around us
'cause you can't always do what you are told."

--John Prine
"The Hobo Song."

 

[Bradley D]

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1Cor. 1:18).

 

[heir]

...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

That's not the word of reconciliation. It's an other gospel and it's not the gospel of YOUR salvation.

If you're really interested in the truth on the matter, I'll tell you. You're no good, you can't do good and what you do has no bearing on your salvation.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

So how are you going to get to God? The answer is, you can't (Romans 3:23 KJV), but the good news is, that Christ got through to God for you (Romans 4:25 KJV, Romans 6:23 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:19-21 KJV. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 KJV)!

You can be saved from the wrath to come by trusting the Lord believing what Christ accomplished on the cross and God raising Him from the dead was for you!

Paul declares the good news that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day as the means by which we are saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

All you have to do is believe He did it for you and the Spirit will put His seal upon you (done deal)

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Nick M]

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1Cor. 1:18).

Irony example 1

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.

Those connected to the body of Christ do good because of the love and Grace of Our Father and Lord Jesus Christ and the gift of The Holy Spirit in our lives. It is through grace that His goodness comes through us as we submit to Him. No one can be good apart from Him. The rules and fear of retribution were incapable of producing good in us. Only the presence of God through faith and Grace. God doesn't want to punish us. He loves us! But if the gift of Himself is rejected, He has no choice. He can not go against His Holiness.

 

[glorydaz]

That's not the word of reconciliation. It's an other gospel and it's not the gospel of YOUR salvation.

If you're really interested in the truth on the matter, I'll tell you. You're no good, you can't do good and what you do has no bearing on your salvation.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

So how are you going to get to God? The answer is, you can't (Romans 3:23 KJV), but the good news is, that Christ got through to God for you (Romans 4:25 KJV, Romans 6:23 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:19-21 KJV. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 KJV)!

You can be saved from the wrath to come by trusting the Lord believing what Christ accomplished on the cross and God raising Him from the dead was for you!

Paul declares the good news that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day as the means by which we are saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

All you have to do is believe He did it for you and the Spirit will put His seal upon you (done deal)

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Indeed. :thumb:

There is no better news than salvation is a gift of God.

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

God hates a proud heart...therefore, boasting is excluded. All glory goes to our Lord and Saviour.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.​

 

[Selaphiel]

...or you're going to burn FOREVER if you are ot / don't do good...

were my thoughts today after arguing with a "G-d fearing" man (orthodox Jew at work) that without G-d, there is "no way you can have a good moral compass". (What absurdity...I told him to go and re-read the Hebrew Bible, especially, Leviticus, Deutoronamy and Exodus. Some pretty immoral stuff there being commanded by G-d.)

Anyway, I came away with the following thought:

Nothing could be lamer than appealing to a being's vanity to "do the right thing" to avoid eternal punishment.

Case closed.

I would agree that that is a horrible motivation for doing good. In fact, it is not doing good at all. You are not supposed to do good out of fear or for a selfish desire for well being, one is supposed to do good for the sake of neighbor and God. The object of goodness is the neighbor, and for the sake of God (that is God as the good itself, that is the telos of all good things).

Doing "good" for the sake of avoiding punishment only reveals a deeper sin in mankind, namely that of ego or pride. This is the sinful structure of the soul referred to as the incurvatus in se ("curved inwards towards itself") from Augustine, also very important to Martin Luther. These are topics that are discussed at great length throughout the entirety of Christian theology, and I assume in Islamic and Jewish theology as well.

Not having a moral compass due to being an atheist is also false of course, at least it is contrary to pretty much any form of classical Christian theology. Moral compasses do not come from faith, they come from human nature.

Granted, one could agree with Nietzsche and claim that what much of what we call moral (in Judeo-Christian cultures at least) are contingent on a theistic ontology. That is, they are values that depend on, in the sense of being anchored in, a particular ontology and by implication anthropology. However, for a theist who believes in the theistic ontology of Christian theology to claim that atheists have no moral compass is absurd and erroneous.

 

[pqmomba8]

Thank you Selaphiel, PureX and Lo for your tangible contribution to the subject matter of this thread. You actullyhad valid arument that c e "gdigested" in the contet of this discussion. Everyone else - eh, just a egurgitation of the "same old, same old.

Anywy, let me put t o you this way: if the threat the eternal damnation was removed (I know, it's a hyothetica, but just bear with me), how many of the "pious" Christians (or Muslims or Jews, etc.) would still be actually, sincerely, worshipping heir G-d? YOu guys ever think about THAT?

 

[Selaphiel]

Anywy, let me put t o you this way: if the threat the eternal damnation was removed (I know, it's a hyothetica, but just bear with me), how many of the "pious" Christians (or Muslims or Jews, etc.) would still be actually, sincerely, worshipping heir G-d? YOu guys ever think about THAT?

You are most welcome, the question you ask is very important.

I do not believe in eternal damnation myself, I lean towards an universalism of apokatastasis.

There are probably quite a few that have a relationship to God based on fear and self-security. That is a very problematic relationship to have to the divine, probably not very healthy either.

This is why I think Luther said (or rather reminded us of) something important. If salvation is by grace, that is not of our merit, then we are truly free to love both God and neighbor. There would be nothing to gain for one self by doing good deeds. Those deeds would then assume their proper object, namely the neighbor and truly be in the service of God. Serving God purely out of fear and self-interest only serves to illumine what Christianity considers to be the root problem in man, namely pride.

Fear of God as a virtue is often misunderstood. It is not meant to be fear as in terror, but rather fear as in awe. But Christians must immediately qualify what we are in awe of, not of might and terror, but of infinite love, forgiveness and humility. Paul speaks of the wisdom that is foolishness to the world, that wisdom is Christ crucified. The glory of God is the crucified Son, the one who forgives even those who tortures and kills him.

This should be obvious to anyone who knows about Christianity. Sadly, it quickly diminishes and returns to worship of God as Emperor writ large, rather than crucified slave.