Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VII

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One Eyed Jack

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The vast majority of chronological indicators show a young Earth.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The vast majority of chronological indicators show a young Earth.

Originally posted by Hank
And you don’t think going from a wolf to a fox in a couple thousand years is evolution?

Strictly speaking, foxes and wolves probably shared a common ancestor (some kind of dog), but I don't think foxes descended from the wolves that exist today, much like you don't believe that man descended from modern apes. Nonetheless, what we're dealing with here is micro-evolution, which few (if any) creationists dispute.
 

Flipper

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OEJ:

They're still the same kind of animal. A cheetah might be a cheetah, but it's still a cat.

Odd then, that the Ur-cat had all this genetic potential, yet cheetahs are all practically genetically identical, whereas lions and tigers are genetically diverse while still having a limited ability to interbreed.

Explain that - did the cheetahs magically lose all of this ability that was presumably inherited from their forefathers? I would really like to see the proposed genetic mechanisms that explains this. I expect that the ICR are hard at work on it as we speak.

As far as marsupials go, some protomammal species were seperated and due to Australia's geographical isolation, the marsupials and monotremes were able to flourish without much competition.

That's much easier to swallow than "the duckbilled platypus walked to Australia from the middleast over some hypothetical landbridge for which we have zero evidence."

Not known for their migrational characteristics. the duckbilled platypi. More for their adaption to living in streams.

Doesn't the ad hoc nature of some of your explanations give you pause for thought?
 

Freak

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Originally posted by Flipper
So how, exactly, have you proven an absolute?

Can "spider" be anything but "spider"---ANSWER THE QUESTION! Again, I'm not speaking of meaning of the word but the way it is sequenced (as I typed it).
 

Flipper

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Lightson:

Even if such were phenomena were viable, then such alternate dimensions would be the "enegy and or matter" which is under consideration. You haven't expanded the options at all, that is where did these other dimensions come from?

Yes, but we're talking about the creation of our universe. If it has naturalistic origins, then your theology goes down the toilet. Let's first of all find out whether string theory has any merit at all before rushing off to investigate the 11th dimension, shall we?
 

Freak

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Originally posted by Flipper
Or, rather, the meaning of "spider" or "chair" is situational.

Like I mentioned to the hundreth time to you...I'm not speaking of the meaning but of the structure of the word....

You believe if I type the words "spider" that it could possibly be structured another way? It has sequence...how could it be changed other then the way I presented it?

If I type ^34.

Can it be smoke?

Of course not. The words/symbols are absolute as I put it. No?
 

Soulman

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Pure,

You are arguing semantics -- the “meaning” of “absolute.” I am arguing that the chair I’m sitting on is “absolute” in the sense that it is knowable (at least in part) AS a chair. That is, I will not mistake my chair for a rutabaga. I am not arguing that my chair is the one “true” chair, or the “original” chair, or the one-and-only chair, but simply that the chair I’m sitting on is a REAL chair, and not some figment of my (our your) imagination. I may not know everything about this chair (or other chairs), but I know and understand THIS chair well enough to know that it IS a chair. The choice is not between no knowledge and exhaustive knowledge. God is “knowable” (via His Word and the created order) but in an admittedly limited sense. But because my knowledge of the chair (or God) is “partial” does NOT mean that the chair (or God) is not absolutely REAL.

You said,
But I don't see how you could have determined that reality is an absolute state.
I would agree that “physical reality” is in a constant state of “flux” (on an atomic and sub-atomic level), but it’s interesting that reality is always “fluxing” or changing in predictable ways. The “reality” is that my chair is in a constant state of motion, even though I perceive it as a “solid.” The kicker is, my chair does not “flux” in another direction, or turn into something else, at least in a way that is not predictable. It is “absolutely” or “really” a chair, and not something else. Yes, it will eventually “wear out” and become something other than a chair, but given what we know about matter, the transformation from a chair into its constituent elements is predictable.

If the reality of my chair is not “absolute” (as in absolutely REAL), then nothing is absolute, in which case arguing about the absoluteness and existence of God is like arguing about the “shade” of the color “blue” with a blind man. If there is no absolute STANDARD of reality, knowledge is impossible.

Soulman
 

One Eyed Jack

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Originally posted by Flipper
OEJ:

Odd then, that the Ur-cat had all this genetic potential, yet cheetahs are all practically genetically identical, whereas lions and tigers are genetically diverse while still having a limited ability to interbreed.

So? A cheetah is still a cat, is it not?

Explain that - did the cheetahs magically lose all of this ability that was presumably inherited from their forefathers?

No, this has nothing to do with magic. It has to do with genetics. To put it simply -- the cheetah has 'evolved' as far as it can go.

I would really like to see the proposed genetic mechanisms that explains this.

Inbreeding.

I expect that the ICR are hard at work on it as we speak.

You could have figured it out yourself, if you had just put a little thought into it, but you're too busy trying to prove me wrong.

As far as marsupials go, some protomammal species were seperated and due to Australia's geographical isolation, the marsupials and monotremes were able to flourish without much competition.

I won't dispute the fact that many animals were able to flourish in Australia due to the relative lack of competition.

That's much easier to swallow than "the duckbilled platypus walked to Australia from the middleast over some hypothetical landbridge for which we have zero evidence."

How'd they get there then? You believe they share a common ancestor with every other living thing, so they couldn't have just sprung up there. They had to get there somehow.

Not known for their migrational characteristics. the duckbilled platypi. More for their adaption to living in streams.

They got there somehow -- there's no disputing that.

Doesn't the ad hoc nature of some of your explanations give you pause for thought?

I've put a lot of thought into my explanations. Do you find them unsound?
 
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LightSon

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Originally posted by Flipper
Yes, but we're talking about the creation of our universe. If it has naturalistic origins, then your theology goes down the toilet. Let's first of all find out whether string theory has any merit at all before rushing off to investigate the 11th dimension, shall we?

Hmmmm.
You arbitrarily define "our universe" to be within certain boundaries. To my way of thinking, any "thing" you can describe which may exist is in "the universe". I do see your point. To avoid this potential semantic loop, we just need to put some definitions to words like "universe" and "dimension".

My God created any "universe" or "dimension" you can think of. And the origin of any "other" universe will still need to be considered within the framed option set of:

A. All the energy and matter that exists has existed forever
B. All the energy and matter that exists created itself from nothing
C. A Supernatural creator created all the energy and matter that exists

You still have not expanded the solution set.
 

Freak

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Originally posted by philosophizer
Freak,

A drglwnbawd is a drglwnbawd. It cannot be anything else. It can only be a drglwnbawd.

Something like that?

Exactly. This is a powerful tool to prove the reality of absolutes. The understanding of the philosophy of language points to the reality of absolutes. As you have just noted.

NOTE: the atheists refuse to deal with this reality.

I asked Zakath & Flipper----You believe if I type the words "spider" that it could possibly be structured another way? It has sequence...how could it be changed other then the way I presented it?

If I type ^34.

Can it be smoke?

Of course not. The words/symbols are absolute as I put it. No?
 

Flipper

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Oh... You're asking if there's objective reality. You should have just said so, instead of playing this shell game with shifting definitions.

Yes. I see your words and I agree that they spell "spider", a word you have now made entirely devoid of meaning. It's there, alright.

Does that make it absolute? That depends, I suppose, on your definition of absolute. I have yet to see anyone give a satisfactory definition of the properties that something must have to be absolute. It seems to me that to state with certainty something is absolute, one must a) have a strong definition of the property or properties of being absolute and b) must know all of the properties of the subject described as an absolute to ensure that it meets the conditions.

Hence, math. symbolic logic. etc. When one can make a complete definition of a thing - a point, a square, a triangle, etc, then one can safely say that they have created an absolute. In euclidian geometry at least.
 

Flipper

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Lightson:

My God created any "universe" or "dimension" you can think of.

Is that scriptural? Sounds like you're expressing a personal preference. I would have thought the bible would be more specific than "let there be light".
 

LightSon

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Originally posted by philosophizer
Freak,

A drglwnbawd is a drglwnbawd. It cannot be anything else. It can only be a drglwnbawd.

Something like that?

drglwnbawd is a drglwnbawd.

This is a tautology and as such is useless.

To rephrase. To assert that a thing is itself adds zero value to any discussion.

Grass is grass. This adds no more information about grass than before you made the statement.

When people say things like "we must remember that God is God" or "sin is sin", what they really are trying to say is "let's not forget the nature of God, or the characteristics of sin".

We should train ourselves to elucidate the characteristics of a thing, thereby adding value and definition to the words being employed.
 

One Eyed Jack

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Originally posted by Flipper
Is that scriptural?

Yes.

Sounds like you're expressing a personal preference. I would have thought the bible would be more specific than "let there be light".

It is.

from the Gospel according to John:
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

See? God made everything.
 

Flipper

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How'd they get there then? You believe they share a common ancestor with every other living thing, so they couldn't have just sprung up there. They had to get there somehow.

Continental drift over hundreds of millions of years.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I expect that the ICR are hard at work on it as we speak.
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You could have figured it out yourself, if you had just put a little thought into it, but you're too busy trying to prove me wrong.

Nuh uh. If this event occured a mere 6,000 years ago, then its path should be clearly imprinted on each cat genome, right?
 

Flipper

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1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

You're blinding me with science.

I would have more confidence if it had suggested a double creation.
 

Freak

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Originally posted by Flipper
Hence, math. symbolic logic. etc.

And words?

If I type the number 546 can it be anything but 546?


When one can make a complete definition of a thing - a point, a square, a triangle, etc, then one can safely say that they have created an absolute. In euclidian geometry at least.

So,you believe if I type the words "spider" that it could possibly be structured another way? It has sequence...how could it be changed other then the way I presented it?

If I type ^34.

Can it be smoke?

Of course not. The words/symbols are absolute as I put it. No?
 

philosophizer

New member
Originally posted by Freak
Exactly. This is a powerful tool to prove the reality of absolutes. The understanding of the philosophy of language points to the reality of absolutes. As you have just noted.

NOTE: the atheists refuse to deal with this reality.

I asked Zakath & Flipper----You believe if I type the words "spider" that it could possibly be structured another way? It has sequence...how could it be changed other then the way I presented it?

If I type ^34.

Can it be smoke?

Of course not. The words/symbols are absolute as I put it. No?

I guess it depends on where you draw the line at which the elements of structure break down to.

==+++=+==+==+==+=+++==
=+====++++=+=+=+=+==+=
=+====+==+=+++=+=+++==
==+++=+==+=+=+=+=+==+=

It might be hard to read, but see what I just typed? Does this have the same structure as "chair"? What about the structure of other fonts or type-styles?
 

LightSon

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Originally posted by Flipper
Lightson:



Is that scriptural? Sounds like you're expressing a personal preference. I would have thought the bible would be more specific than "let there be light".

I believe it is scriptural.

Here are a few:
Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created......"

This shows 2 high-level "things"
a. creator
b. creation


My view is just that simple. Regarding my earlier post "any 'thing' you can describe which may exist is in 'the universe'. ", the 'thing' we can describe falls under b. creation, which in my view is any dimension or universe which exists. We may not have knowledge or proof these dimensions exist, but ontologically that which is created exists.

additional scriptural support:
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Thanks for asking.
 

Stratnerd

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A better appoach would be to step back and see if there's enough evidence to suggest that there was a global flood with very few surivors BEFORE we go ahead and make up post hoc stories (e.g., super speciation rates, super tectonics, super mutation rates).

Of course this isn't the creationist manifest, which is instead, declare the Bible as true a priori then seek out situations that confirm rather than potentially reject something that was written in the Bible. This ain't science and is why they (even themselves) give it another name: creationism.
 
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