Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VII

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novice

Who is the stooge now?
Originally posted by Zakath
Well, it is a debate and my opponent is supposed to provide some evidence to back up his assertions other than merely reciting "God did it."
Well...

IF there are only three solutions to the origin of energy and matter

A. All the energy and matter that exists has existed forever
B. All the energy and matter that exists created itself from nothing
C. A Supernatural creator created all the energy and matter that exists
(you do agree there is no 4th option right?)

Bob has made his case that WE KNOW through science that A and B must be incorrect therefore the only option left is C.

You have not made a case to disprove (or persuade) otherwise.

That's all I am saying, but I do think your last post was your best. Good job! I can tell both you and Bob are putting allot of effort into this debate and thats great for us - the audience. :)
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Freak
Everything. Zakath, can chair be anything but chair? The word itself (I'm not referring to the meaning but the structure of the word)?
:confused:
What do you mean by "the structure of the word"? The arrangement of the letters? The sounds they represent?
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Flipper

I think what you are trying to say is that there are things called chairs that have an objective reality and a primary purpose (to sit on).

I'm not speaking of it's meaning but it's structure. Can chair be spider?

However, trying to suggest that words have absolute meaning is a fool's errand.
I'm merely pointing out that the chair can only be chair in it's structure. Can it be spider?
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Zakath
:confused:
What do you mean by "the structure of the word"? The arrangement of the letters? The sounds they represent?

*sigh*

chair, Zakath, is chair. It cannot be spider---in the arrangements of the letters and representation of the word. It is absolute, right?
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
The arrangement of the letters is purely by convention, Jay. Spellings are not absolute, they may change over time. For example, in Middle English the word was spelled "chaiere".

The letters and the word are merely symbols to represent a reality.
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Zakath
The arrangement of the letters is purely by convention, Jay. Spellings are not absolute, they may change over time. For example, in Middle English the word was spelled "chaiere".

Chaiere however is chaiere. Chair is chair. The understanding of the philosophy of language is a difficult concept but I didn't think someone with a "doctorate" would have this kind of trouble.

Again, Zakath, can the word chair (not chaiere) but chair be anything but chair?

The letters and the word are merely symbols to represent a reality.

Letters not real?
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Letters are human-constructed symbols, as are words.

I don't think I understand what you're trying to get at here, Jay.

A symbol only represents some other thing, it need have no intrinsic real meaning of its own.
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by novice
Freak I think a better example would be a triangle.

I am speaking of the words itself which Zakath is having a tremendous difficulty grasping.

Again...

Can word "chair" be anything but "chair"--I'm speaking of the way it is structured.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Forget it, Jay. :doh:

You and I are merely repeating the same phrases at each other, unable to communicate meaningfully...

Ciao! :wave:
 

philosophizer

New member
Originally posted by Freak
Then it refuses to be a "chair"---a "spider chair" is just that, a "spider chair." Look at the structure of both. Hopefully, a man with a "doctorate" can see the difference. :chuckle:

Wait a minute. Okay, I was with you for a while, Freak --but a chair refusing to be a chair? You're losing yourself. It's still a chair, you just add a descriptor to it.

How would a chair "refuse" to be a chair? Is this a talking spider chair?
 

Hank

New member
Re: Don't take Hank to the bank, he's overdrawn.

Re: Don't take Hank to the bank, he's overdrawn.

Originally posted by Lion
Hank-Your ignorance is showing. There aren’t many (if any) educated scientists that would claim it was not possible to fit several of every kind of land based animal into a vessel with the Arc’s dimensions. Do a little research.

Well if you define kind high enough on the classification scale of animals then you are correct. The problem is that it’s difficult to get a creationist to even define the word kind used in the Bible. Of course you can define it so that all the animals fit, but then they have to do a lot of evolving to have the diversity. More so than is acceptable to even the evolutionist. If you define it as a species like today, there is no way they can fit.

Since you think I’m so ignorant, perhaps you would like to enlighten us with your expert knowledge and explain what a kind is?
 

Hank

New member
Originally posted by cheeezywheeezy
Hey Hank...

How many animals did Noah need to take on the ark? Do you even know...or are you just throwing that comment out there thinking it is actually making a point?

Give me a definition of a kind and I’ll give you an answer.
 

LightSon

New member
Originally posted by novice
Freak I think a better example would be a triangle.

Just my two cents! :D

But what if the chair has 3 sides, perhaps it is a chair and a triangle.

What if I sit on a really big spider, does it become chair?

Why is water wet?
 

Flipper

New member
I agree, that was a strong follow up from Dr Zee.

The thing is, Bob makes the case for God's existence by insisting that the naturalist's position is impossible. Zakath insists that it is not, and illustrates it by outlining some hypotheses that represent our first steps into the deepest mysteries (where did life come from, where did the universe come from).

There are a number of advantages to the naturalist position:

Hypotheses are, or may one day be, testable. They can be discussed, debated, modified and discarded. Even discarding is useful, because it tells us something that couldn't have happened.

Fiat creation is not testable. There will be no hypothesis of creation beyond that of the admittedly pleasing verse of the OT. Many (most?)

Past experience has shown us that lines in the sand about what is knowable have always been crossed. As we only have history as a guide, I select science over supernaturalism. We've only really been doing this for 400 years, why not give the process some real time?

However, sometimes it seems that no amount of evidence will satisfy a creationist. If one day scientists demonstrate abiogenesis in a lab, the creationist will say that it proves intelligent design, and anyway, there's no evidence to say that it happened that way. Most creationists may not be really interested in truth, but then again they'd say the same about me.

Furthermore, while Bob pussyfoots around and won't declare an interest in one deity or another, then all manifold possibilities open up. It seems he might have to use the same science he criticises to negate the creation myths of others (geology, cosmology, physics) - if he does not then surely he is forced to place Christianity on the same footing as all these other religions. This is a position I doubt he is willing to take.

Again, the naturalist has the advantage here. And atheistic naturalism is the default position - be skeptical about all such claims. Rely on what we know and what we believe we know. There is no "proof" for theism to be found here.

Actually, there are a couple of better arguments Bob could marshal if he insists in staying within the physical realm, but I'm not going to be helping him out.

Novice, the point is that if there are alternate possible explanations for some of these fundamental questions (and there are, although they are extremely tentative), then the existence of the universe and life ceases to be proof of God's existence. Furthermore, if a naturalist explanation is found, it then negates a key reason for the existence of a hypothetical deity or deities.

Finally, remember that Zakath is also being asked to prove a negative -- always a toughy. There are many things I don't accept that I can't prove away beyond a shadow of a doubt. I don't really believe that aliens are visiting this earth. I don't believe that fairies really exist. I don't believe in angels, guardian or otherwise. I don't believe in a secret conspiracy that runs the planet.

Lots of people do believe some of these things, and to prove otherwise to their satisfaction is next to impossible. "If only you would open your eyes and drop your preconceptions", they say, "then you would see the truth."

If Zakath can cast reasonable doubt on Bob's arguments, then Bob has failed to prove the existence of God. It will then be up to Zakath to summarize why the evidence (or lack of it) favors his position. There are still quite a lot of posts to go, Novice.
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Zakath
Letters are human-constructed symbols, as are words.

The absolute value of the word structure "chair" is self evident. Can "chair" be spelled "spider?"

Real letters, the absolute value coincides with the letter itself. For example: chair can only be structured as "chair" not spider.

I don't think I understand what you're trying to get at here, Jay.

Did you ever study the philosophy of language in school?

A symbol only represents some other thing, it need have no intrinsic real meaning of its own.

C is a symbol but does C have no intrinisic meaning or value?
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by philosophizer
Wait a minute. Okay, I was with you for a while, Freak --but a chair refusing to be a chair?

A spider chair is not structured the same as chair. I'm speaking of it's structure. The absolute value is defined for real and complex letters (as it is structured).


c h a i r

is different from...

s p i d e r c h a i r

In it's structure.

Chair can only be structured chair. It is absolute.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Freak
The absolute value of the word structure "chair" is self evident. Can "chair" be spelled "spider?"
Not that I am aware of, but that's based upon purely arbitrary, man-made rules.

Real letters, the absolute value coincides with the letter itself. For example: chair can only be structured as "chair" not spider.
Letters have no absolute values, they are all symbols.

Did you ever study the philosophy of language in school?
No. If what you're trying to do is a result of that study, it seems you need to brush up on it. You're not being very clear. :confused:

C is a symbol but does C have no intrinisic meaning or value?
Intrinsic meaning? Not that I'm aware of.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
You keep referring to letters having absolute values. Numbers have absolute values, not letters... :confused:
 
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