Battle Royale X: 46,000 views; BR VII at 56,500; Euthyphro at 14k!

[Bob Enyart]

Updated March 10, 2014: TOL's Battle Royale X on Open Theism, Is the Future Settled or Open?, now has 97,000 views. (And BR VII, Does God Exist? Bob Enyart vs Zakath, has 87,000.)

BR VII was at 35,000 views during BR X.
Updated Sept 8, 2006: We're now over 20,000 views and BR VII is over 42,000.

Also, Google ranks BR X 9th of 329,000 pages (Google 9 of 329,000 for: "open theism debate"). And two other top-ten Google rankings link to TOL's BR X; from the Wikipedia and Theopedia OT articles.

And A Christian Answer to Euthyphro's Dilemma has 40,000 views. And creation.com links to this TOL article and Google ranks it as second of 42,000 pages (Google 2 of 42,000 for: euthyphro's dilemma answered). Of course, TOL is #1 when searching for: Christian answer to Euthyphro.

And Bob's One-on-One against Johnny on Entropy and Evolution has 15,000 views and has attracted the attention of the American Journal of Physics author who prompted the debate!

TOL also has a posting of the debate Is Calvinism Biblical? between the president of the online TNARS, The North American Reformed Seminar, Dr. Larry Bray and Bob Enyart which is at 19,000 views.

Original Post: Hey, TOL's Battle Royale X on Open Theism has just reached 17,000 views!

-Bob Enyart

p.s. This just in

Thanks for suggesting the [TOL Battle Royale X] Open Theism debate between D. James Kennedy's professor and your Denver Bible Church. I just want to let you know that I can't believe what I'm reading. I'm totally shocked, stunned and mesmerized. This debate is FANTASTIC... Your open theism side is literally 'crushing' the Calvinist side. And with it, I'm sorry to say, you're crushing most of what I've always believed. This is sooooooo good and sooooooo smart. There's not even a typo in it and I love the gentle attitude as well. Not proud or arrogant. It's all unreal! I don't think I've ever been so impressed by anything in my life. I'm really learning a lot. Please thank your pastor Bob and your church for me. I love it. You guys are the best!

In Him,
Barry from Ontario, Canada

 

[Lighthouse]

Cool

 

[Bob Enyart]

Okay, so now we're approaching 18,000! And by the way...

Okay, so now we're approaching 18,000! And by the way...

Okay, so now we're approaching 18,000!

And one of those 17,950 views was from Australia, from..., well..., let's call him Awesee:

Subject: FROM a former 5 point calvanist
Date: 3/2/2006 5:37:09 P.M. MST
From: Awesee @ some down under email service
To: Bob@KGOV.com

Hi Bob,

I came across your teaching through searching the web for debates with atheists as I had become weary of Calvinism after attending Calvinist churches and adhering to their belief system. I heard a debate with a Calvinist vs. atheist that made me feel like I wanted to be an atheist as the god the Calvinist portrayed was cruel and unrelenting.

[BE: I like to use the adjectives arbitrary and capricious.]

I listened to a few more debates until coming across your one "great debate" i think it was...

[BE: I’m not sure which he’s referring to, but I think he meant Battle Royale VII with Zakath. But then...]

I've now gone through your online debate with Sam from D. James Kennedy's church and have appreciated the solid teaching from the Bible [on the Open View that] you have presented there.

I'm keen to continue on my study of God from the Open View perspective and was wondering if you could point me to some websites/authors/preachers/churches that teach this view?

[BE: Awesee has just ordered some of our BEL materials!]

Up until a couple of weeks ago I thought I was losing my faith in God, now I realize I was losing faith in the god taught by the Calvinists.

[BE: Which any calvinist worth his points would have to agree with !]

Thank you for helping me understand who this God is that I now want to serve heartily!

[BE: :thumb:]

God is alive, loving and good and is not responsible for all the evil I see in the world and that has come against me.

[BE: Yes! The five primary attributes of God, far more significant than any of the quantitative attributes about the amount of divine power, knowledge, presence, emotion, or change, are the qualitative attributes, that God is Living, Personal, Relational, Good and Loving!]

Thanks again,

Awesee

[BE: Awesee, you are so very welcome! Those two months on TOL last summer are bearing great fruit, and Lord willing, Battle Royale X with Dr. Lamerson will continue to lead many Christians to understand that our God is alive, and He has a dynamic relationship between the persons of the Trinity, and with His creatures, and He will continue, this day and forever, to be free and creative.]

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Okay, so now we're approaching 18,000!

And one of those 17,950 views was from Australia, from..., well..., let's call him Awesee:

Subject: FROM a former 5 point calvanist
Date: 3/2/2006 5:37:09 P.M. MST
From: Awesee @ some down under email service
To: EnyartBob@aol.com

Hi Bob,

I came across your teaching through searching the web for debates with atheists as I had become weary of Calvinism after attending Calvinist churches and adhering to their belief system. I heard a debate with a Calvinist vs. atheist that made me feel like I wanted to be an atheist as the god the Calvinist portrayed was cruel and unrelenting.

[BE: I like to use the adjectives arbitrary and capricious.]

I listened to a few more debates until coming across your one "great debate" i think it was...

[BE: I’m not sure which he’s referring to, but I think he meant Battle Royale VII with Zakath. But then...]

I've now gone through your online debate with Sam from D. James Kennedy's church and have appreciated the solid teaching from the Bible [on the Open View that] you have presented there.

I'm keen to continue on my study of God from the Open View perspective and was wondering if you could point me to some websites/authors/preachers/churches that teach this view?

[BE: Awesee has just ordered some of our BEL materials!]

Up until a couple of weeks ago I thought I was losing my faith in God, now I realize I was losing faith in the god taught by the Calvinists.

[BE: Which any calvinist worth his points would have to agree with !]

Thank you for helping me understand who this God is that I now want to serve heartily!

[BE: :thumb:]

God is alive, loving and good and is not responsible for all the evil I see in the world and that has come against me.

[BE: Yes! The five primary attributes of God, far more significant than any of the quantitative attributes about the amount of divine power, knowledge, presence, emotion, or change, are the qualitative attributes, that God is Living, Personal, Relational, Good and Loving!]

Thanks again,

Awesee

[BE: Awesee, you are so very welcome! Those two months on TOL last summer are bearing great fruit, and Lord willing, Battle Royale X with Dr. Lamerson will continue to lead many Christians to understand that our God is alive, and He has a dynamic relationship between the persons of the Trinity, and with His creatures, and He will continue, this day and forever, to be free and creative.]

POTD :first:

 

[Bob Enyart]

Now that BR X has surpassed 18k views, we're climbing Google!

Now that BR X has surpassed 18k views, we're climbing Google!

Now that BR X has surpassed 18,000 Views, we're climbing Google!

We placed well a month ago (Google 3 of 278k), but that was searching on the less popular search words: Openness Theology Debate.

Now, using the more popular search terms, and googling Open Theism Debate, places TOL's BR X at
(Google 6 of 279k, just behind Wikipedia and OpenTheism.info.

-Bob Enyart

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Now, using the more popular search terms, and googling Open Theism Debate, places TOL's BR X at
(Google 6 of 279k, just behind Wikipedia and OpenTheism.info.

-Bob Enyart

This news makes one side of the debate very encouraged.

 

[Bob Enyart]

17k? 18k? How about... 23,000 and still gettin' the Word out...

17k? 18k? How about... 23,000 and still gettin' the Word out...

Knight, et. al., (copied from TOL Feedback & Info Center):

Our Battle Royale X: Open Theism Debate is now at over 23,000 Views! But wait, there's more great news about TheologyOnline.com! If you Google the single word theology, Google returns 38.3 million pages, and TOL appears on Google's first page! And at number 8! (A good number, no?) !!

Another example of how popular TOL is for the kinds of issues that TOL specializes in (like Open Theism, the death penalty, etc.), if you Google the words: God, Death, Penalty (or most variations, like "God and the Death Penalty," etc.) Google returns 1.3 million pages. And TOL is not only on the first page, but we are #1! Out of 1.3M pages with the three words God, Death, and Penalty, the death penalty Bible study on TOL is #1! (It even beats out an article by Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia!) Wow!!

This speaks to the great outreach of this forum to people around the world who are interested (one way or another) in God's Word. TOL currently has over 7,000 members and over 710,000 actual posts, not hits, or visits, but posts!

There are surely many examples that show the popularity (and hence, importance) of TOL. But let me end with another note about BR X. If you Google Open Theism Debate, of the 386,000 pages returned, TOL appears on the first page with our Battle Royale X! And not only that, but our BR-X is listed on that first page twice, once by linking to TOL, and the second time by linking to Wikipedia's Open Theism article which links to TOL! That's two hits out of 386k, and on the first page (plus there's another BE/OT debate there)!

And now TOL's getting a major upgrade. It just keep's gettin' better!

-Bob Enyart
Denver Bible Church & KGOV.com

 

[fool]

"Beer can nodule" gets TOL the top two spots.

 

[Bob Enyart]

Ha!

Ha!

Now fool, that's funny!

Beer can nodules!

-Bob

 

[pwhines]

If God is not responsible for and in control of all the evil that happens, then every tragedy that has befallen me in this life thus far is utterly meaningless, and try as He may, God may or may not be able to come up with a plan B for me. And who knows, maybe plan B will be just as much of a meaningless disaster as was plan A.

And this scheme helps you all with your faith and trust in God?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If God is not responsible for and in control of all the evil that happens, then every tragedy that has befallen me in this life thus far is utterly meaningless, and try as He may, God may or may not be able to come up with a plan B for me. And who knows, maybe plan B will be just as much of a meaningless disaster as was plan A.

So your alternative is you would rather think that God blessed you with tragedy??? :doh:

And this scheme helps you all with your faith and trust in God?

Two points....

1. Yes, I trust God because He is good and not evil. The good gifts are from God, not the bad ones (those are man's responsibility).
2. If God is orchestrating everything (without exception) nothing can help (or hurt) our faith.

 

[pwhines]

Knight -

Believe me when I tell you that I do not want to suffer, nor are we to seek out suffering. However, the Scriptures are pretty clear on this:

James 1:2-4
[2] Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, [3] knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. [4] And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Romans 5:3-5
[3] And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; [4] and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; [5] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Knight, here is a good example of how Christians view their sufferings. This is from Charles Spurgeon:

The sermon titled: WOE AND WEAL. NO. 3239 A SERMON PUBLISHED ON THURSDAY, MARCH 2ND, 1911,

AT THE METROPOLITAN TABERNACLE, NEWINGTON.
“I will bear the indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned
against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me
he will bring me forth to the light and I shall behold his
righteousness.” Micah 7:9.

Here is the section you need to notice:

Now we have grown so wise that we attribute all startling visitations to natural causes. We will scarcely pray to have cholera or plague removed, or ask for anything desirable as the bountiful gift of heaven. The philosophy that puts God farther off from us than he used to be, would be better unlearned, and a truer philosophy known. At any rate, so far as personal sorrows are concerned, it would be a very sharp and trying experience to me to think that I have an affliction which; God never sent me, that the bitter cup was never filled by his hand, that my briars were never measured out by him, nor sent to me by his arrangement of their weight and quality. Oh, that were bitterness indeed! But, on the contrary, the prophet here sees the hand of God in all his trials, and I pray that you and I may do the same. May we see that our heavenly Father fills the cup with loving tenderness, and holds it out, and says, “Drink, my child; bitter as it is, it is a love-potion which is meant to do thee permanent good.” The discerning of the hand of God is a sweet lesson in the school of experience.


Blessings,
pwhines

 

[Bob Enyart]

pwhines, couldn't you have started this discussion somewhere else?

pwhines, couldn't you have started this discussion somewhere else?

pwhines, isn't there a more relevant thread for you to debate OT?

This thread is just to show Calvinists, et., al., that it has obviously been predestined that the Open View side would have a major victory in Battle Royale X, and then also it has been decreed that people around the world would find that debate here on TOL, and many would be persuaded by it!

Thanks in advance!

-Bob

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Believe me when I tell you that I do not want to suffer, nor are we to seek out suffering.

Notice the not so subtle admission of man's ability to make his own choices oozing out of pwhines words. This is very common among settled viewers; preaching that we can do nothing of ourselves yet inherently realizing and advising that we shouldn't "seek out suffering".

You continue...

However, the Scriptures are pretty clear on this:

James 1:2-4
[2] Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, [3] knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. [4] And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Romans 5:3-5
[3] And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; [4] and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; [5] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

You might want to point me to the part in those verses where it says that God is the one responsible for our "trials" and our "tribulations". Notice how your theology causes you to read something into those verses that isn't even stated?

But even more importantly....
If trials and tribulations are a mechanism to test faith, and the testing of that faith is an effort to produce a "perfect result" then clearly even in that scenario there is a desire on God's part for us to follow His will and more closely align our will to His. The settled viewer does not believe any will exists except that of God's, and therefore even when we grant the settled viewer their own premise.... it still falls flat on it s face.

 

[pwhines]

Bob Enyart -

This thread is just to show Calvinists, et., al., that it has obviously been predestined that the Open View side would have a major victory in Battle Royale X, and then also it has been decreed that people around the world would find that debate here on TOL, and many would be persuaded by it!

I see this kind of thing all the time, Bob. The side that has to yell, "we won! horay for us!" is the side that generally lost, and knows it. The side that wins just says: read the debate.

Knight -

Notice the not so subtle admission of man's ability to make his own choices oozing out of pwhines words.

Notice the explicit ignorance of Knight who claims Calvinists deny that fallen men have wills, that they live by their wills, make decisions by their wills, and act by their wills. All men always make their own choices. This is explicit in all Calvinist theologians. Try reading a little on the other side, Knight.

This is very common among settled viewers; preaching that we can do nothing of ourselves yet inherently realizing and advising that we shouldn't "seek out suffering".

Again, simple gross misrepresentation...

You continue...
Quote:
However, the Scriptures are pretty clear on this:

James 1:2-4
[2] Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, [3] knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. [4] And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Romans 5:3-5
[3] And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; [4] and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; [5] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

You might want to point me to the part in those verses where it says that God is the one responsible for our "trials" and our "tribulations". Notice how your theology causes you to read something into those verses that isn't even stated?

Not at all. The testing of our faith develops perseverance - are you saying that this is not from God but rather comes arbitrarily by chance or something like that?

Philippians 1:29 - For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him but also to suffer for Him.

What was that you were saying about suffering *not* coming to us from God, Knight?

But even more importantly....
If trials and tribulations are a mechanism to test faith, and the testing of that faith is an effort to produce a "perfect result" then clearly even in that scenario there is a desire on God's part for us to follow His will and more closely align our will to His. The settled viewer does not believe any will exists except that of God's, and therefore even when we grant the settled viewer their own premise.... it still falls flat on it s face.

My goodness, Knight, you have no idea what we believe. The "settled viewer" believes men have compatibilist free-will. Joseph understood this well (try telling Him God had nothing to do with his suffering). Listen to his own testimony of the origin of the abuse he received from his brothers:

Genesis 50:20
"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

Yes, Knight, that very same, wicked action of being sold into slavery - God meant it for good - and that was what sustained Joseph during his trial. He did not embrace the despair of Open Theism which would have left Him wondering if maybe God was working on plan B (which might fail as well). No, he believed in the God of Scripture, the God of which open theists know nothing.

pwhines

 

[Wamba]

Bob Enyart -
I see this kind of thing all the time, Bob. The side that has to yell, "we won! horay for us!" is the side that generally lost, and knows it. The side that wins just says: read the debate.

Actually, Bob Enyart sells and uses Battle Royale X, so he's obviously reccomending people to read it, whereas I haven't seen or heard anything that would imply that Samuel Lamerson is selling or using the debate as a resource. It seems that one wouldn't want to sell something if it makes him look bad.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight -

Notice the explicit ignorance of Knight who claims Calvinists deny that fallen men have wills, that they live by their wills, make decisions by their wills, and act by their wills. All men always make their own choices. This is explicit in all Calvinist theologians. Try reading a little on the other side, Knight.

A Calvinist can claim he believes that man has freewill but in practice they teach the opposite.

Not at all. The testing of our faith develops perseverance - are you saying that this is not from God but rather comes arbitrarily by chance or something like that?

Philippians 1:29 - For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him but also to suffer for Him.

What was that you were saying about suffering *not* coming to us from God, Knight?

Suffering for Him is a natural result of following Him and preaching His truth. (John 15:18, Luke 6:22, Luke 21:17).

We suffer because we follow Him and following Him is the hard road, that is what the Bible teaches. You (and the SV) teach that God is actually orchestrating our suffering. :shocked: You make God out to be some sort of wacky sadist in the sky.

My goodness, Knight, you have no idea what we believe. The "settled viewer" believes men have compatibilist free-will.

Compatibilism is just a word!

Tossing in a word to cover a contradiction doesn't fly.

 

[Bob Enyart]

Over 26k views of the BR X O.T. debate on TOL

Over 26k views of the BR X O.T. debate on TOL

Updated Aug 28, 2007: TOL's Battle Royale X on Open Theism now has over 26,000 views and climbing.
(And BR VII, Does God Exist? BE vs Zakath, has over 45,000 views!)

Updated Dec 15, 2006: We're now over 22,000 views and BR VII is at 43,000.

Updated Sept 8, 2006: We're now over 20,000 views and BR VII is over 42,000.

Also, BR X shows up well in search engines. (Google 1 of 400k for: Openness Theology Debate [original terrminology], and on Google's first page for the more popular term: Open Theism debate) Not bad TOL!

Original Post: Hey, TOL's Battle Royale X on Open Theism has just reached 17,000 views!

-Bob Enyart

 

[Servo]

Now that BR X has surpassed 18,000 Views, we're climbing Google!

We placed well a month ago (Google 3 of 278k), but that was searching on the less popular search words: Openness Theology Debate.

Now, using the more popular search terms, and googling Open Theism Debate, places TOL's BR X at
(Google 6 of 279k, just behind Wikipedia and OpenTheism.info.

-Bob Enyart

This news makes one side of the debate very encouraged.

The closed view side might ask-->"Why did God do this?"

 

[patman]

Philippians 1:29 - For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him but also to suffer for Him.

Genesis 50:20
"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

Welcome to TOL pwhines.

I love talking about the open view. You should have a look at this thread:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38999

Join the conversation.

Your verses above will be addressed there. Just look for my post towards the end.