ECT Baptism: No longer for today? Why did it ever exist then?

[Lon]

I was seeing interest in this topic and wanted to be faithful to bringing it up in a thread where I can steer the conversation a little:
I know why those who do not believe it is for gentile believers, exists, but many as yet do not.

Because this is ECT, it should filter out some of the banter. Suggestion: Perhaps answer these 6 questions in the six question format so others can easily follow along:

1)State your systematic theology (I'm Calvinist by example) and then Briefly, why is or isn't baptism for today?

2) Those who believe it is for today, and those who do not: what does or did baptism accomplish?

3) Is baptism yet for anybody, perhaps a Jew, today? (if so, name who it is for briefly such as "jew/gentile" "all-believers")

4) What is the hallmark or peculiarity of your particular view in regards to baptism? (what would another be surprised that your systematic theology believes about baptism, for instance?)

5) Please give a small bit of the controversy or debate between you and another regarding your view: What is the biggest issue with a baptism discussion? What comes up the most? What don't people get?

6) Anything I didn't think to ask, but needs to be addressed?

 

[Tambora]

Hi Lon. I hope your thread goes well.

Do you think John's baptism in water was a ritual that was already practiced, or was it a new ritual for a new purpose?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I was seeing interest in this topic and wanted to be faithful to bringing it up in a thread where I can steer the conversation a little:
I know why those who do not believe it is for gentile believers, exists, but many as yet do not.

Because this is ECT, it should filter out some of the banter. Suggestion: Perhaps answer these 6 questions in the six question format so others can easily follow along:

You have posted in ECT... I missed it. I totally appreciate your OP because Baptism is a symbolic reverberation that goes way back.

1)State your systematic theology (I'm Calvinist by example) and then Briefly, why is or isn't baptism for today?

Open Theist by honesty. John 5:39f and Ephesians 2:8f to be precise. Open Dispensational Biblical Zionist to make matters as clear as possible. Baptism is and isn't for today. Yup. I'm taking both roads.

2) Those who believe it is for today, and those who do not: what does or did baptism accomplish?

Baptism is like a marriage. It is a public profession, but it doesn't have to be public. Baptism is not a "requirement" for salvation... in the literal... but the literal is beautiful and it's symbolism is powerful!

Baptism is connected to many events in scripture.... Noah's Ark, Israel through the Red Sea, The Tabernacle and Jewish Custom... There was the bronze basin. This is where we first see the manifestation of the "Washing".

The best verse I can think of to directly answer your question is... 1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

It is the message of Baptism that is important.

1) Upright in the water... (This is us being crucified with Christ)
2) Dunked................. (This is us being buried in the tomb with Christ and awaiting Resurrection)
3) Drawn Up............... (This is Jesus Resurrecting and being born within our hearts)

We remain dead as door nails, and it is only Jesus that LIVES. Our corpses are buried until we are "made new". Do we still make mistakes after baptism? Does a bear like honey? But we are utterly dead and His Grace is sufficient.

3) Is baptism yet for anybody, perhaps a Jew, today? (if so, name who it is for briefly such as "jew/gentile" "all-believers")

Baptism is a biblical key. To understand it is to aid the new in Him with understanding. If baptism doesn't actually occur... Salvation remains... The key is to turn away from confidence in our "dead works" by acknowledging that we are utterly helpless to obtain salvation. We must "REST" (Heb. 4) in Jesus. This is followed by "Saving Faith". That Faith is our being grasped by our Savior unto eternal life. We count all flesh loss. Good or Bad. We Glory His Glory alone. We also learn to look past others flesh and listen to their "spirit".

4) What is the hallmark or peculiarity of your particular view in regards to baptism? (what would another be surprised that your systematic theology believes about baptism, for instance?)

I don't believe the actual act is necessary for salvation.

5) Please give a small bit of the controversy or debate between you and another regarding your view: What is the biggest issue with a baptism discussion? What comes up the most? What don't people get?

Carnal vs. Spiritual

6) Anything I didn't think to ask, but needs to be addressed?

Why do people fight over the "way" its done. I actually understand this... but why do some say it is an act that is symbolic, while others say it is crucial? Why do some demand immersion while others sprinkle? Why are the scriptures behind baptism in the old testament marginalized?

I'll leave one more set of scriptures...

Acts 19:5f ... these two verses show how Baptism can be utilized in a literal fashion, but the verse 6 clearly shows that the receipt of the Holy Spirit is the end game. And why not... after all... (Ephesians 1:13)

My point... If someone wants to display their "marriage to the Body" then that's fine. But the Symbol is just a Symbol. The understanding, relinquishment of "Dead Works" (all salvational effort of one's self) and "Belief" in our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ is where it becomes "Saving Faith".

To keep it simple... D-B-R

 

[DAN P]

I was seeing interest in this topic and wanted to be faithful to bringing it up in a thread where I can steer the conversation a little:
I know why those who do not believe it is for gentile believers, exists, but many as yet do not.

Because this is ECT, it should filter out some of the banter. Suggestion: Perhaps answer these 6 questions in the six question format so others can easily follow along:

1)State your systematic theology (I'm Calvinist by example) and then Briefly, why is or isn't baptism for today?

2) Those who believe it is for today, and those who do not: what does or did baptism accomplish?

3) Is baptism yet for anybody, perhaps a Jew, today? (if so, name who it is for briefly such as "jew/gentile" "all-believers")

4) What is the hallmark or peculiarity of your particular view in regards to baptism? (what would another be surprised that your systematic theology believes about baptism, for instance?)

5) Please give a small bit of the controversy or debate between you and another regarding your view: What is the biggest issue with a baptism discussion? What comes up the most? What don't people get?

6) Anything I didn't think to ask, but needs to be addressed?

Hi and there is BAPTIZO/ BAPTISM for today , LIKE :

#1 , In Eph 4:5 it reads , ONE BAPTISM/BAPTISMA , do you see the DIFFERENCE ?

#2 , In Rom 6:4 it reads , you are BAPTIZED INTO His death , BAPTIZO / BAPTISMA do you see the difference !

So what does BAPTISMA then mean ??

Many shoild check the Greek text , except for Danoh !!

dan p

 

[Lon]

Hi and there is BAPTIZO/ BAPTISM for today , LIKE :

#1 , In Eph 4:5 it reads , ONE BAPTISM/BAPTISMA , do you see the DIFFERENCE ?

#2 , In Rom 6:4 it reads , you are BAPTIZED INTO His death , BAPTIZO / BAPTISMA do you see the difference !

So what does BAPTISMA then mean ??

Many shoild check the Greek text , except for Danoh !!

dan p

Immersed, engulfed, drenched. The word baptize (bap-teed-dzo) is a transliteration. We'd see 'dunked' or 'immersed' or 'filled' as English replacement words. As you rightly say, we are baptized in His Spirit, thus the context allows 'baptize" to, I think, speak for itself, whether we knew the word or not before.

 

[DAN P]

Immersed, engulfed, drenched. The word baptize (bap-teed-dzo) is a transliteration. We'd see 'dunked' or 'immersed' or 'filled' as English replacement words. As you rightly say, we are baptized in His Spirit, thus the context allows 'baptize" to, I think, speak for itself, whether we knew the word or not before.

Hi and in the Dispensation of the GRACE of God BAPTISMA means THERE is only one BAPTIZER , the Holy Spirit , pure and simple !!

Yes BAPTIZO is a translitered word as are most Greek words !!

The GRACE of God does not need WATER at all !!

Only Israel needed water baptism and Repentance !!

dan p

 

[turbosixx]

I was seeing interest in this topic and wanted to be faithful to bringing it up in a thread where I can steer the conversation a little:
I know why those who do not believe it is for gentile believers, exists, but many as yet do not.

Because this is ECT, it should filter out some of the banter. Suggestion: Perhaps answer these 6 questions in the six question format so others can easily follow along:

1)State your systematic theology (I'm Calvinist by example) and then Briefly, why is or isn't baptism for today?

2) Those who believe it is for today, and those who do not: what does or did baptism accomplish?

3) Is baptism yet for anybody, perhaps a Jew, today? (if so, name who it is for briefly such as "jew/gentile" "all-believers")

4) What is the hallmark or peculiarity of your particular view in regards to baptism? (what would another be surprised that your systematic theology believes about baptism, for instance?)

5) Please give a small bit of the controversy or debate between you and another regarding your view: What is the biggest issue with a baptism discussion? What comes up the most? What don't people get?

6) Anything I didn't think to ask, but needs to be addressed?

Baptism is for today.

1)My systematic theology is Christian

2)This is what the bible tells me baptism accomplishes
**Saves us. 1 Pt. 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Mk. 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved;
**Washes away sins Acts 22: 16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’
**How we die with Christ Rom. 6: 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death,
** How we receive the HS. Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
**It circumcises us Col. 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism,
**Puts us in Christ’s name Acts 19: 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
**Makes us a Christian Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
**Puts us in Christ Gal. 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

3)It’s for everyone

4)It’s necessary yet I’m not catholic

5)People don’t get that its part of becoming a Christian. Jesus told the apostles how to make Christians and it was baptism. The bible gives us examples of people becoming Christians and the believers were baptized. Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

 

[Danoh]

Why did water baptism exist - for a sign.

One of Israel's divers (various) washings, or water purification rituals.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

In other words, one of Israel's various water purification rituals for sign of "a good conscience towards God."

Luke 7:26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. 7:27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. 3:24 For John was not yet cast into prison. 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

 

[DAN P]

Immersed, engulfed, drenched. The word baptize (bap-teed-dzo) is a transliteration. We'd see 'dunked' or 'immersed' or 'filled' as English replacement words. As you rightly say, we are baptized in His Spirit, thus the context allows 'baptize" to, I think, speak for itself, whether we knew the word or not before.

Hi and this is what I believe on BAPTISM !~

Since it is a translitered word , these are the English words that can be used !!

Washing , Water , Idenification , Placed , Baptizer are just a few off the top of my head !!

IMMERSIONING is not used , unless you use 1 Peter account of Noah and the one that DROWNED were Baptized and the ones in the ARK were given a DRY BAPTISM !!

dan p

 

[dodge]

Lon;4970893]I was seeing interest in this topic and wanted to be faithful to bringing it up in a thread where I can steer the conversation a little:
I know why those who do not believe it is for gentile believers, exists, but many as yet do not.

Because this is ECT, it should filter out some of the banter. Suggestion: Perhaps answer these 6 questions in the six question format so others can easily follow along:

1)State your systematic theology (I'm Calvinist by example) and then Briefly, why is or isn't baptism for today ?

Christian by faith Baptist by God's leadership.

Jesus said to be baptized "after" we learned and was taught of Him.

2) Those who believe it is for today, and those who do not: what does or did baptism accomplish?

Jesus instructed His followers to be baptized.

Jesus was baptized.

Identifies the followers of Jesus "with" Jesus as symbolized in baptism of our death to self, and raised to newness of life in Jesus.

3) Is baptism yet for anybody, perhaps a Jew, today? (if so, name who it is for briefly such as "jew/gentile" "all-believers")

Baptism is for those who are born again and believe Jesus is the only way of salvation.

4) What is the hallmark or peculiarity of your particular view in regards to baptism? (what would another be surprised that your systematic theology believes about baptism, for instance?)

Those who love God try their best to do as God commanded them not to be saved but because they are saved.

5) Please give a small bit of the controversy or debate between you and another regarding your view: What is the biggest issue with a baptism discussion? What comes up the most? What don't people get?

Some turn baptism into a work which of course they use to do what they want to do and disregard God completely.

6) Anything I didn't think to ask, but needs to be addressed?

Jesus said, " not everyone that says unto me Lord Lord will enter into the Kingdom of heaven".

 

[Nihilo]

1)State your systematic theology (I'm Calvinist by example) and then Briefly, why is or isn't baptism for today?

Catholic, and there's no reason to think that baptism isn't still today, exactly as it was in the beginning.

2) Those who believe it is for today, and those who do not: what does or did baptism accomplish?

Obeying the Lord Jesus Christ.

3) Is baptism yet for anybody, perhaps a Jew, today? (if so, name who it is for briefly such as "jew/gentile" "all-believers")

Everybody.

4) What is the hallmark or peculiarity of your particular view in regards to baptism? (what would another be surprised that your systematic theology believes about baptism, for instance?)

That baptism's not required to be received into the Church. And that even a vehement atheist can validly baptize so long as they're not joking when they do it.

5) Please give a small bit of the controversy or debate between you and another regarding your view: What is the biggest issue with a baptism discussion? What comes up the most? What don't people get?

Heaven and earth come together specially in the Church's sacraments.

6) Anything I didn't think to ask, but needs to be addressed?

We'll see. BTW in Catholicism I find a more scriptural and cogent systematic theology than I ever did with Calvinism, and that includes the thing that attracted me most to Calvinism, which is the Maker's exhaustive definite power or sovereignty.

 

[DAN P]

Catholic, and there's no reason to think that baptism isn't still today, exactly as it was in the beginning.
Obeying the Lord Jesus Christ.
Everybody.
That baptism's not required to be received into the Church. And that even a vehement atheist can validly baptize so long as they're not joking when they do it.
Heaven and earth come together specially in the Church's sacraments.
We'll see. BTW in Catholicism I find a more scriptural and cogent systematic theology than I ever did with Calvinism, and that includes the thing that attracted me most to Calvinism, which is the Maker's exhaustive definite power or sovereignty.

Hi and what VERSE says that the B O C still needs BAPTISM ??

dan p

 

[oatmeal]

I was seeing interest in this topic and wanted to be faithful to bringing it up in a thread where I can steer the conversation a little:
I know why those who do not believe it is for gentile believers, exists, but many as yet do not.

Because this is ECT, it should filter out some of the banter. Suggestion: Perhaps answer these 6 questions in the six question format so others can easily follow along:

1)State your systematic theology (I'm Calvinist by example) and then Briefly, why is or isn't baptism for today?

2) Those who believe it is for today, and those who do not: what does or did baptism accomplish?

3) Is baptism yet for anybody, perhaps a Jew, today? (if so, name who it is for briefly such as "jew/gentile" "all-believers")

4) What is the hallmark or peculiarity of your particular view in regards to baptism? (what would another be surprised that your systematic theology believes about baptism, for instance?)

5) Please give a small bit of the controversy or debate between you and another regarding your view: What is the biggest issue with a baptism discussion? What comes up the most? What don't people get?

6) Anything I didn't think to ask, but needs to be addressed?

Which baptism are you referring to specifically? The water baptism of John? the baptism in spirit or the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ?

 

[Nick M]

Which baptism are you referring to specifically? The water baptism of John? the baptism in spirit or the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ?

Baptism (immersion) by the Holy Spirit into Christ.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi and what VERSE says that the B O C still needs BAPTISM ??

You are right, Dan. Today there is only "one baptism" (Eph.4:5) and that baptism is the one where One Spirit baptizes believers into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13).

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You are right, Dan. Today there is only "one baptism" (Eph.4:5) and that baptism is the one where One Spirit baptizes believers into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13).

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

 

[Cross Reference]

No one ever gets baptized INTO Jesus'or the Holy Spirit. "By" or "with" the Holy Spirit is referenced in Acts 1:4-5 with Jesus being the mighty Baptizer and speaking to His Disciples: "And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:4-5 (KJV) And earlier on by JTB, the water Baptizer: "John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire" Luke 3:16 (KJV)

"And, behold, I [Jesus] send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued [Baptized] with power from on high. Luke 24:49 (KJV)

Why has the nominal Christian ceased in believing for such a baptism would be a better question since is it NOT dealing with salvation but rather the "unction to function" AFTER salvation per the scriptures cited above.

Up until Jesus' commanding His Discples to be baptized with the Holy Spirit, He was the only One who had been both baptized with water and with the Holy Spirit. He needed it because what followed after He was. See Luke 4:1-14; Matt 4:1-11 KJV

Seems to me that Jesus had some serious reasons for giving His command to His Disciples for them to wait for the power before leaving Jerusalem. I believe history bears out the reasons.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

The ones who were baptized with water were the people who Paul was describing who were baptized by the Baptist. They "heard" the Baptist say that they should believe and on Christ Jesus and then they submitted to the rite of water baptism.

The ones who were with Paul did not receive the Spirit when they were baptized with water but instead when Paul placed his hands upon them:

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Seems to me that Jesus had some serious reasons for giving His command to His Disciples for them to wait for the power before leaving Jerusalem. I believe history bears out the reasons.

The power they received was the ability to speak in tongues.

 

[Nihilo]

Hi and what VERSE says that the B O C still needs BAPTISM ??

dan p

Verse? Baptism has been how new Christians are publicly welcomed into the B O C since day one, and baptism is mentioned by name by many New Testament books, including plenty written by Paul.