ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Where does it say they were created during creation week?
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.​

Every mention of stars does not refer to angels.
No, of course not, but the Bible does seem to intentionally make it difficult in many places to tell whether the text is referring to physical stars or to angels. Once you've noticed this, it seems to be nearly everywhere. Very often the passage could be talking about either and there is no effort made by the text to clarify which is actually being talked about. Just do a word search for "stars" and read the passages in context and you'll see what I mean.

I think creation week relates to the universe/earth/man, not the angelic realm which probably predated this week (but not necessarily by a long time?).
There is exactly zero indication in the Bible that such is the case. The Bible, as I quoted above, directly states that both Heaven and Earth and EVERYTHING that is in them was created by God in six days and then He rested on the seventh day. If there was a pre-creation week creation, the Bible fails to mention it to us.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I didn't say that angels weren't created before man was created, I said, - wait - the BIBLE said that they were created during the creation week. Since the bible seems to intentionally blur the distinction between angels and the stars in the sky, I'd say they were created on day 4 of the creation week (Genesis 1:16-19).

Day 4?

How is it that all the angels rejoiced when God created earth, Lucifer rebelled against God, Lucifer convinced a third of the angels to follow him, and God sentenced Lucifer and the fallen angels to hell in less than two days?
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
In Hebrew, heavens does not have to include the entire universe where angels may dwell. The area above the earth is 'heavens' as well as the galaxy. I don't think this is a strong proof text that necessitates spirit creation to be included in material creation, the scope of Gen. 1 in my mind. I think it can be inferred that the angelic realm predates the heavens/earth of the universe. I don't think the text limits the possibility of spiritual beings that are not material predating the physical universe (which is what the wording in your proof text seems to emphasize...we both have to watch the eisegesis).

I think this is a balanced answer and the majority view (of course, I like it, because it agrees with me:p ). I would say your view is not common because the evidence does not necessitate it.

http://www.gotquestions.org/when-angels-created.html

The exact date of angelic realm existing is not given, but I feel safe to say it is before the creation week (which emphasizes the human domain and physical universe).

I do not support the gap theory and pre-Adamic race idea, BTW.

There is room for speculation vs dogmatism on this question. Job seems to seal it.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Day 4?

How is it that all the angels rejoiced when God created earth, Lucifer rebelled against God, Lucifer convinced a third of the angels to follow him, and God sentenced Lucifer and the fallen angels to hell in less than two days?

:thumb: Seems clear that something happened.

Isaiah 45
18: For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Genesis 1
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


Also, for Clete, I think there is a notable difference in "made" and "created"...For instance, I can make a table from a tree, but I didn't create the wood. The earth was created in Genesis 1:1, the earth we now know was made in the six days...
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
Control does not have to be meticulous, omnicausal, deterministic, cosercive/causative, micromanaging (a sign of insecurity).

Control can be providential, macromanaging, responsive, loving, cooperative, taking into consideration other free moral agents, etc. (a sign of security, sovereignty, and omnicompetence).

Good parenting and the biblical model of God's providence is the latter concept.

When someone uses the word "control", I think it pertains to running something totally with no outside interference. When someone says that God is not a "control freak" I think that is what they mean.

Good parenting (or bad) doesn't compare with God's authority over all things....they woujld not exist without Him.

So, I do believe that God is in complete control.
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
Robots are cause-effect, programmer-program. They are not morally capable or responsible and cannot truly love.

Determinism is contrary to love, relationship, freedom, responsibility, etc. (self-evident concepts in Scripture).

How so? Did n't God decide to love- while we were yet sinners? There was nothing to love.....He determined to love.

God could make an automaton to bow down mechanistically, but this would not be true love or worship.

Luke 19:38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

.... Jesus did say that if the people didn't cry out- the stones would.....but according to you, this would not be true worship.

Reciprocal relationships must be freely entered into and maintained. This is evident in marriage, parenting, etc.

How so? There were many arranged marriages where the couple actually ended up loving one another.
Paul tells (commands) husbands to love their wives. Why command something that already is- or is it isn't, cannot be commanded?
Why are the older women told to teach the younger to love
their husbands and love theri children?
How can God command us to love one another if one cannot fabricate love?

The Bible has imperatives to love, submit, etc. It is contrary to God's will for a parent to hate or abandon their kids, yet some do. This shows a measure of self-determination and autonomy, the opposite of robotics. People can divorce, contrary to God's will. People go to hell, contrary to God's will.

Yes, the Bible does have imperatives to love, submit etc. Familial love was part of our makeup, you might say. But as you say- some do not love their children......this is because of our sin nature and total depravity- Rom 1;31; 2 Tim 3:3- these without natural afection are called reprobates.
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
There is no good reason or defense for God to save some but not save many that He could save if He wanted to. This is more akin to Satan who wants all to perish vs only some to perish like God (difference in degree, not quality or character).

Though Calvinists don't like the accusation, their view impugns God's character, makes His love partial and limited, creates a caste system (no fault of the individuals who are arbitrarily cosigned to heaven or hell based on decree vs a just basis in reality), etc.

..."defense" for God? Who could take Him to court?? Who does He answer to??? Your theology?

I don't mind that "accusation", as it is correct: God's love is limited, or rather- it is directed and not love spread everywhere- love to those who are saved and love to those who go to hell.....that would make diminish God's love, there would be "something" to separate us from God's love (contrary to Scripture Rom 8)

I thought Nang's Calvinism was bad. I thought STP/Voltaire's MAD was bad.

You take the cake combining both badness?!

:chew:
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
There is a reason we are to pray for His kingdom to come and will be done. His will is not always done.

.... His Will is always done. The prayers that are asked according to His Will- will be answered in the affirmative. James 4:2

[QUOTE;godrulz;1896668]You are begging the question. Scripture says that it is God's will that we be sexually pure (Thess.). Given the imperatives and rebukes against those who are impure, it is self-evident that God's will is not always done in individual lives.

It is not His will that many perish nor is it necessary that they do so to fulfill a Calvinistic caste quota. It is not His will that people break the commands, yet many do.

Your view is indefensible, simplistic, and ultimately makes God responsible for evil.[/QUOTE]

Thes. says that it is God's Will - your sanctification...that you abstain from sexual sins. So, God's Will is done- we are sanctified. Sanctification is a process, this is how God is molding us into the mature male of the Body of Christ.

I know that you've heard the arguments before on "all perish" of Peter's epistle, so I won't bore you. (if you want to hear it again, let me know).

Your view is defensible according to your view of Who and what God is and is not....and ultimately makes God a responder to sin, something that He didn't want but somehow got its way and now He has to deal with it- unable to stop it because He can't infringe on human's "rights"....and then He had to sacrifice His Only Son because of it.

As far as "simplistic", what is wrong with "simple"......the Scriptures are written for us and to us- not just the elite brainiacs......it is God (the Holy Spirit) Who opens our eyes to see, and give us teachers so we learn.
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
My guess would be that you do not know what "random" means in this context. It does not mean that an event happens without a cause but rather that it happens without a specific or pre-planned purpose, that it happens independent of a controlling intelligence.

The Bible clearly teaches that God is ABLE to meticulously control His creation to whatever extent He desires but it nowhere teaches that God actually does meticulously control every event that does happen. Indeed it repeatedly teaches just the exact opposite...

Resting in Him,
Clete

Please bear with me, as I'm a little slow :dunce:
But it seems that your definition of "random" is saying that things happen because of something, then after they randomly happen, "we" need to wait to see what happens.....because there is no preplanned purpose for it to have happend. The reason is a result of the randomness??
:zoomin: :dog:

So, are you saying that God causes Randomness, but has no plan for anything? He waits to see what happens and then makes another randomness happen?
:dog: :zoomin:
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
Think this through a little more thoroughly, Pam.

:think: :think: :think:

The problem is that your view of God is too humanly based......

{QUOTE=Clete;1896692]

Which is the greater king? The king whose subjects obey him completely because they have no other choice, or the king whose subjects obey because of loyalty and love of both king and country?

The Calvinist king is neither! The Calvinists king is no more a king than is that tallest piece on your chess board because unless there is the possibility of disobedience, for a person to obey is meaningless and impossible. They are neither obeying nor disobeying, they are simply doing. A robot does not obey its programmer it simply executes the programming. God is not a computer programmer, He is a King and we are His subjects who choose to either obey Him or not, to either subject ourselves to His will or to rebel.

Resting in Him,
Clete[/QUOTE]

"Greater" in what way? Because he is "loved"? Scriptures say that we love Him because He first loved us....we do love Him. And it's not robotic. I love Him, but I didn't until He saved me.
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
There is no “future” with God, God is eternal. God does not have to “learn” anything, He already knows everything.

I never said God had to look into the "future" to "learn" anything

Sorry to have misrepresented you tetelestai.

I'll try it again:

You wrote (with my emphasis)
In His omniscience, He at all times perceives all events with all their causes, conditions, and relations from the most vast to the most minute as one indivisible system of things, every part of which is essential to the integrity of the whole. Not only does God know in complete detail what will happen, but He also knows what would have happened had He decided to adopt some course of action other than the one He chose.:

This is what I want to comment on.

If what you say is true, that God knew there could be another, different outcome had He chosen a different course of action...then:

Why wouldn't He choose a course of action where everyone would be saved?
1) He didn't want everyone saved
2) There was no course of action where a certain preson would ever "accept" Him

Either way, it sounds like God created some - for destruction.
 

Pam Baldwin

New member
I don't think they would say we have a free will decision to believe or not. They say we are dead and helpless and need monergistic regeneration to produce the gift of faith.

As one of the "they" (I think!) , you have that last part wrong. Faith is the faith of Christ- we don't produce faith.
Gal. 2:16
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
As Steelers Wheel said in 1972:

“Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle……..”

Today, it’s: “Calvinists to the left of me, Open Theists to the right, here I am stuck in the middle….”

The greatest attacks Satan has made against God were made before man came into the picture. Satan is a super genius; he is smarter than any created being who ever lived. Before anyone existed on this earth, he had his back to the wall with a divine judgment upon himself and millions of angelic creatures who followed him. Obviously, Satan did not like the judgment, and in seeking to do something about it, made a very strong objection. An objection that was, in effect, some sort of appeal which demanded a new trial, or a new case, or something to that nature.

Based upon a knowledge and understanding of Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20, his objection can be deduced very simply: “How can a loving God cast His creatures (fallen angels in this case) into the lake of fire?” The answer is interesting to us, because as human beings, we have become involved in the same objection from many different individuals. This, of course, originates from Satan himself, and the answer has to do with man’s free will and God’s grace.

Angelic free will had an opportunity under grace and rejected it. Therefore, while the fallen angels were saying, “Not fair!” God created man in order to demonstrate to them that His position in grace was valid, that love can only express itself through grace, and that God cannot change His character to accommodate any creature, whether angel or human being.

God’s perfect character included love for the angels; but God cannot love in a way that is inconsistent with His other characteristics. When Satan went negative and said, “I will be like the most High” (Isa. 14:13-14), God had to make a decision, one that was compatible with His righteousness and justice, as well as with His love. So God created man with a free will to show Satan how a loving God can SAVE a creature with a free will and maintain His righteousness. Since Satan had implied that God would lose His righteousness if even one of the fallen angels goes to the lake of fire, Satan concluded that God was no longer God, but that he (Satan) was.

The great underlying issue in history is always the character of God, of which love and righteousness and justice are a part. When one understands reconciliation and propitiation, one can see that God has done some of the most astounding things and yet never lost or compromised one bit of His character.

There is no way the Devil can win. He couldn’t change God, and we can’t change God, nor can any other human being. In fact, our security is in the fact that He cannot change. That’s why we have the assurance, “Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever” (Heb. 13:8). "Yesterday”= the angelic conflict;
“today” = human history and the extension of the angelic conflict; “forever” = eternity.

Man’s free will and God’s grace proves Calvinism and Open Theism to be both wrong.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
As Steelers Wheel said in 1972:

“Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle……..”

Today, it’s: “Calvinists to the left of me, Open Theists to the right, here I am stuck in the middle….”

The greatest attacks Satan has made against God were made before man came into the picture. Satan is a super genius; he is smarter than any created being who ever lived. Before anyone existed on this earth, he had his back to the wall with a divine judgment upon himself and millions of angelic creatures who followed him. Obviously, Satan did not like the judgment, and in seeking to do something about it, made a very strong objection. An objection that was, in effect, some sort of appeal which demanded a new trial, or a new case, or something to that nature.

Based upon a knowledge and understanding of Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20, his objection can be deduced very simply: “How can a loving God cast His creatures (fallen angels in this case) into the lake of fire?” The answer is interesting to us, because as human beings, we have become involved in the same objection from many different individuals. This, of course, originates from Satan himself, and the answer has to do with man’s free will and God’s grace.

Angelic free will had an opportunity under grace and rejected it. Therefore, while the fallen angels were saying, “Not fair!” God created man in order to demonstrate to them that His position in grace was valid, that love can only express itself through grace, and that God cannot change His character to accommodate any creature, whether angel or human being.

God’s perfect character included love for the angels; but God cannot love in a way that is inconsistent with His other characteristics. When Satan went negative and said, “I will be like the most High” (Isa. 14:13-14), God had to make a decision, one that was compatible with His righteousness and justice, as well as with His love. So God created man with a free will to show Satan how a loving God can SAVE a creature with a free will and maintain His righteousness. Since Satan had implied that God would lose His righteousness if even one of the fallen angels goes to the lake of fire, Satan concluded that God was no longer God, but that he (Satan) was.

The great underlying issue in history is always the character of God, of which love and righteousness and justice are a part. When one understands reconciliation and propitiation, one can see that God has done some of the most astounding things and yet never lost or compromised one bit of His character.

There is no way the Devil can win. He couldn’t change God, and we can’t change God, nor can any other human being. In fact, our security is in the fact that He cannot change. That’s why we have the assurance, “Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever” (Heb. 13:8). "Yesterday”= the angelic conflict;
“today” = human history and the extension of the angelic conflict; “forever” = eternity.

Man’s free will and God’s grace proves Calvinism and Open Theism to be both wrong.
It's time to put up or shut up.

How in the world does God's grace and man's free will prove the OV to be wrong? What about them actually makes a solid case that God is not just as, if not more, free than man?
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
It's time to put up or shut up.

How in the world does God's grace and man's free will prove the OV to be wrong? What about them actually makes a solid case that God is not just as, if not more, free than man?

The Integrity of God guarantees that His entire essence is completely involved in all He does or sponsors. All Divine attributes form one, consistent, indivisible whole, "His total person" (Deut 32:39). Thus, the love of God is not an isolated attribute. His love stands upon His integrity, composed of perfect righteousness and absolute justice.

This marvelous principle of Truth demonstrates that the God of love and grace is neither sentimental nor partial nor indecisive toward anyone. (Deut 10:17).

Grace is Divine strength which expresses the love of God, but grace is also the uncompromising policy of the justice of God. We adjust to the justice of God, or it will adjust us.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
When someone uses the word "control", I think it pertains to running something totally with no outside interference. When someone says that God is not a "control freak" I think that is what they mean.

Good parenting (or bad) doesn't compare with God's authority over all things....they woujld not exist without Him.

So, I do believe that God is in complete control.

We do not dispute God's authority and providential oversight and intervention.

If God was in absolute control, there would be no rebellion, suffering, hell, etc. He has sovereignly chosen to give us a say-so (limited, but genuine). He did not create a risk free universe. If He was omnicausal and deterministic, we would not see babies raped and murdered. Hitler and Satan would not have killed millions of Jews. Justice will take place, but the mess the world is in shows that God is not micromanaging everything. If He was, His character and ways would be similar to Satan's.

A warfare vs blueprint model of sovereignty is biblical. Your view gives no cogent theodicy (problem of evil) and impugns the character of God.

When the eternal state comes, you will see what it is like for God to be in absolute control (no more sickness, suffering, evil, Satan).

God's will is not the only factor in the universe, by His sovereign will (desires love, relationship, freedom, despite the 'risk' that He is able to redeem and mitigate in the end...but not without many perishing).

God grieves at the way things are. You affirm it as God's will, so why oppose evil?! Jesus opposed these things and did not give vapid assertions of determinism or control.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
:think: :think: :think:

The problem is that your view of God is too humanly based......

{QUOTE=Clete;1896692]

Which is the greater king? The king whose subjects obey him completely because they have no other choice, or the king whose subjects obey because of loyalty and love of both king and country?

The Calvinist king is neither! The Calvinists king is no more a king than is that tallest piece on your chess board because unless there is the possibility of disobedience, for a person to obey is meaningless and impossible. They are neither obeying nor disobeying, they are simply doing. A robot does not obey its programmer it simply executes the programming. God is not a computer programmer, He is a King and we are His subjects who choose to either obey Him or not, to either subject ourselves to His will or to rebel.

Resting in Him,
Clete

"Greater" in what way? Because he is "loved"? Scriptures say that we love Him because He first loved us....we do love Him. And it's not robotic. I love Him, but I didn't until He saved me.[/QUOTE]


Love is volitional, but free (one can choose to not love). God loving us first is not support for determinism. You do not have an argument, just assumptions.

If I married Nang or Pam, which marriage would have lasted the longest? I think I would last a few days longer with Pam than with Nang.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
The Integrity of God guarantees that His entire essence is completely involved in all He does or sponsors. All Divine attributes form one, consistent, indivisible whole, "His total person" (Deut 32:39). Thus, the love of God is not an isolated attribute. His love stands upon His integrity, composed of perfect righteousness and absolute justice.

This marvelous principle of Truth demonstrates that the God of love and grace is neither sentimental nor partial nor indecisive toward anyone. (Deut 10:17).

Grace is Divine strength which expresses the love of God, but grace is also the uncompromising policy of the justice of God. We adjust to the justice of God, or it will adjust us.
That doesn't answer my question.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Sorry to have misrepresented you tetelestai.

I'll try it again:

You wrote (with my emphasis)
In His omniscience, He at all times perceives all events with all their causes, conditions, and relations from the most vast to the most minute as one indivisible system of things, every part of which is essential to the integrity of the whole. Not only does God know in complete detail what will happen, but He also knows what would have happened had He decided to adopt some course of action other than the one He chose.:

This is what I want to comment on.

If what you say is true, that God knew there could be another, different outcome had He chosen a different course of action...then:

Why wouldn't He choose a course of action where everyone would be saved?
1) He didn't want everyone saved
2) There was no course of action where a certain preson would ever "accept" Him

Either way, it sounds like God created some - for destruction.

Exhaustive definite foreknowledge is wrong, so should not enter the argument (a syllogism depends on correct premise to have a correct conclusion).

God wants everyone to be saved. His love is universal and impartial as He seeks the highest good of all and His highest glory (it glorifies Satan to have many perish for whom Christ died...hence the urgency and persuasion of the gospel...lost in Calvinism, except Piper and Spurgeon who are inconsistent or hypo-Calvinists).

The reason many are not saved is that they love darkness more than light and refuse to come to Him for life (see John). It is not because God unconditionally wills their destruction. He determines that those who believe will become part of the elect, and that those who persist in unbelief will justly perish. He does not determine in eternity who will believe or not. As long as you cling to monergism-monothetism (one will of God vs permissive, etc.)-determinism/omnicausality, you will compromise love and have an indefensible view of God and His ways.

Relational, free will theism, not determinism, is the biblical evidence. Wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
As one of the "they" (I think!) , you have that last part wrong. Faith is the faith of Christ- we don't produce faith.
Gal. 2:16

Faith is a manward response based on knowledge, love, trust, mental assent, etc. It involves the will and mind and is not passive. God convinces and convicts, but we respond.

Your proof text link translates it correctly...faith IN Christ....the Greek genitive is more complex than always 'of'. Just because KJV uses it does not mean you can build a doctrine around a preposition (like STP tends to do).

We are commanded in Scripture to believe and are rebuked if we do not do so. In your view, God should regenerate and gift everyone and save them unconditionally, just as He supposedly is able to damn people unconditionally. This is not just, loving, nor biblical.

Why cling to Calvinism when the biblical position retains human vs divine responsibility for evil, suffering, hell, etc.

Your view leaves no reason to pray or evangelize since we would more often than not act contrary to God's decree and settled will?!

As Nang would say, Bah, bah, bah.:bang:
 
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