ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[godrulz]

No, according to you, Hell would be proof that God's Will is not done......and that would, in my opinion, knock Him off the throne.

There is a reason we are to pray for His kingdom to come and will be done. His will is not always done.

You are begging the question. Scripture says that it is God's will that we be sexually pure (Thess.). Given the imperatives and rebukes against those who are impure, it is self-evident that God's will is not always done in individual lives.

It is not His will that many perish nor is it necessary that they do so to fulfill a Calvinistic caste quota. It is not His will that people break the commands, yet many do.

Your view is indefensible, simplistic, and ultimately makes God responsible for evil.

The Gospels present a warfare vs blueprint model of sovereignty. Jesus opposes things contrary to the Father's will (sin, Satan, sickness); He does not affirm them as God's will (which Calvinism logically must).

Even in earthly rule, the King, Queen, President, Ruler is not dethroned because subjects disobey the law or rebel against authority. They are dealt with and sanctioned just as the Moral Governor of the universe does.

Satan is on a leash, but He is not a puppet of God. He acts contrary to God (warfare vs blueprint). This is why it talks about spiritual warfare, prayers being resisted in Daniel, etc.

 

[Clete]

:thumb:
Yes, nang, I agree.

It is not possible for God to be "arbitrary", He does everything for a reason. There is absolutely no randomness in the universe. It may look like randomness to our finite minds though.

God chose to do as He wills for reasons within Himself.

Pam

Do you have even one single piece of evidence that this is the case?
The Bible doesn't teach this and everything we know about how the universe works would indicate that all kinds of things happen at random all the time.

My guess would be that you do not know what "random" means in this context. It does not mean that an event happens without a cause but rather that it happens without a specific or pre-planned purpose, that it happens independent of a controlling intelligence.

The Bible clearly teaches that God is ABLE to meticulously control His creation to whatever extent He desires but it nowhere teaches that God actually does meticulously control every event that does happen. Indeed it repeatedly teaches just the exact opposite...

1 Kings 19:11 Then He said, “Go out, and stand on the mountain before the LORD.” And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake; 12 and after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Chaos Theory and Quantum Mechanics support Open Theism, whereas Newtonian (dated) physics could be used for determinism?

God is in control without controlling every cough, sneeze, bowel movement, grain of sand, atom, molecule, quark, etc. at every given moment. Hitler is gone and will be judged, but God is still here and the Second Coming will still happen. God did not micromanage Hitler unless you want to say God vs Hitler-Satan killed the Jews.

If I trip and fall, it is not because God caused or arranged it from eternity past.

If I procreate or not, I have a say, by God's sovereign choice (he even allows people to have abortions without intending this...He will judge it, but is not the cause of it in anyway).

This stuff is so basic and self-evident, why is it debatable? What happens to the Calvinistic brain that makes them not see these things (was it Hilston or AMR who thought Open Theism damaged our brains or something?).

 

[Clete]

Clete, no doubt God's intention was for Adam and his offspring to love him. But, it seems that Adam's purpose was to "replenish the earth, subdue it, and have dominion", which is ultimately the purpose of the second Adam, Jesus Christ. In the end, the earth will be filled with those who are in Christ, he will subdue and exercise dominion over all creation.

Do you agree?

No. Those who are in Christ have a Heavenly calling, not an Earthly one. Israel has an Earthly calling but they are but a single nation, not the whole human race. Both the Body of Christ and Israel of both of God however and thus our purpose as humans is not Earthly nor Heavenly but Godly.

Replenishing and having dominion over the Earth was Adam's responsibility not the purpose of his existence. If God simply needed something to take care of the Earth, He would not have needed to create us in His image and in His likeness. Our primary purpose clearly has to do with having a relationship with our Creator.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

No, according to you, Hell would be proof that God's Will is not done......and that would, in my opinion, knock Him off the throne.

Think this through a little more thoroughly, Pam.

There is no way that such a thing makes any sense whatsoever.
When a man commits treason, is the king of the nation against whom he committed the crime somehow no long in charge of his nation?

Which is the greater king? The king whose subjects obey him completely because they have no other choice, or the king whose subjects obey because of loyalty and love of both king and country?

The Calvinist king is neither! The Calvinists king is no more a king than is that tallest piece on your chess board because unless there is the possibility of disobedience, for a person to obey is meaningless and impossible. They are neither obeying nor disobeying, they are simply doing. A robot does not obey its programmer it simply executes the programming. God is not a computer programmer, He is a King and we are His subjects who choose to either obey Him or not, to either subject ourselves to His will or to rebel.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Clete is correct. Pam is pedantic, but not plausible.

godrulz is goofy (William is weird).

 

[tetelestai]

Our primary purpose clearly has to do with having a relationship with our Creator.

Clearly?

Can you show me where in the Bible it clearly says this is our “primary” purpose?

You do know that before human history there were angels that had a relationship with God (their creator)?

 

[tetelestai]

Determinism is contrary to love, relationship, freedom, responsibility, etc. (self-evident concepts in Scripture).

That is why you have to add free will to determinism.

Determinism + free will = compatabilism

Free will – determinism = libertarianism (open theism)

Determinism – free will = Calvinism

The only thing that Calvinists and open theists agree on is that compatabilism does not make sense.

However, compatabilism is what does make sense, what doesn’t make sense is open theism or Calvinism.

 

[godrulz]

That is why you have to add free will to determinism.

Determinism + free will = compatabilism

Free will – determinism = libertarianism (open theism)

Determinism – free will = Calvinism

The only thing that Calvinists and open theists agree on is that compatabilism does not make sense.

However, compatabilism is what does make sense, what doesn’t make sense is open theism or Calvinism.

Huh? It is the Calvinists who argue FOR compatibilism and against libertarian free will.

I think I will start a thread on determinism from a new apologetic book I got.

 

[tetelestai]

Huh? It is the Calvinists who argue FOR compatibilism and against libertarian free will.

I think I will start a thread on determinism from a new apologetic book I got.

Yes that is correct, but Calvinists (to the best of my knowledge), even though they are self proclaimed compatabilists, have one huge major exception. That is the free will decision to believe or not to believe in Jesus Christ.

So, are they really compatabilists?

 

[tetelestai]

I can't speak for "Calvinists", but for myself. The reason is because to assert that God's "foreknowledge" means that He looked into the future to see (i.e. learn) who would and who wouldn't believe says that at some point God did not know all things.....and that is absolutley wrong!

There is no “future” with God, God is eternal. God does not have to “learn” anything, He already knows everything.

I never said God had to look into the "future" to "learn" anything

Here is what I said:

Why are Calvinists so against the principle that God’s foreknowledge enabled God to know who would believe and who would not believe by free volition?

 

[Clete]

Clearly?

Can you show me where in the Bible it clearly says this is our “primary” purpose?

The whole thing!

It's the theme of the entire Bible!

Deuteronomy 6:5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Deuteronomy 7:9 “Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Deuteronomy 10:12 “And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul,

Psalm 45:7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

Ezekiel 16:8 “When I passed by you again and looked upon you, indeed your time was the time of love; so I spread My wing over you and covered your nakedness. Yes, I swore an oath to you and entered into a covenant with you, and you became Mine,” says the Lord GOD.

Micah 6:8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment.

Luke 11:42 “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written: “ Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

1 Corinthians 8:3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.​

I could have quoted dozens more. Indeed I could have pasted the entire Scripture in response to this question. If you do not understand that the primary purpose of our existence is to love God and to be loved by Him, you've missed the whole point.

You do know that before human history there were angels that had a relationship with God (their creator)?

Actually, you do not know this. In fact, the Bible explicitly tells us otherwise...

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

There is no “future” with God,

This is not Biblical either!

Where in the Bible does it say that God has no future?

God is eternal.

It difficult for me to understand how people do not see the implicit contradiction present in that sentence.

God does not have to “learn” anything, He already knows everything.

The Bible directly contradicts your doctrine and traditions of men.

Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:

My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
3 “ And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;
It shall not be pruned or dug,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.
I will also command the clouds
That they rain no rain on it.”
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.​

I never said God had to look into the "future" to "learn" anything

Here is what I said:

Why are Calvinists so against the principle that God’s foreknowledge enabled God to know who would believe and who would not believe by free volition?

They are against it because the only free volition they believe exists is God's alone. They believe that having free volition is what defines God as God! In the mind of a Calvinist, whether they realize it (or admit it) or not, free will is the same thing as sovereignty.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Yes that is correct, but Calvinists (to the best of my knowledge), even though they are self proclaimed compatabilists, have one huge major exception. That is the free will decision to believe or not to believe in Jesus Christ.

So, are they really compatabilists?

I don't think they would say we have a free will decision to believe or not. They say we are dead and helpless and need monergistic regeneration to produce the gift of faith.

 

[godrulz]

There is no “future” with God, God is eternal. God does not have to “learn” anything, He already knows everything.

I never said God had to look into the "future" to "learn" anything

Here is what I said:

The potential future becomes the fixed past through the present. God knows reality as it is and knows the future as possible, not actual. If he knew it as actual, then our choices would have to have been made before we are even born. This does not compute.

Rev. 1:4 uses tensed expressions about God. The fact that the incarnation follows creation and precedes the Second Coming shows that past, present, future does have meaning to God. He experiences endless time, not timelessness (a philosophical assumption not in Scripture).

 

[Lon]

Is that Francis Schaeffer? Better!

Absolutely

 

[tetelestai]

Actually, you do not know this. In fact, the Bible explicitly tells us otherwise...

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.​

(Job 38: 4-7) (God asks Job the following):

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Notice that the angels (morning stars) were in attendance and sang for joy when God created the earth. Angels, therefore, existed before mankind was formed from the dust of the ground.

Now that you know that angels existed before mankind was created, you might want to reconsider your answer as to what are "primary purpose" is.

 

[nicholsmom]

One other thing. What are your thougts on Paul(The Holy Spirit) saying this.

2 Thessalonians 1

....We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gee, Nick, this seems rather obvious to me. These believers were being praised for showing love, patience, and endurance in the face of great tribulation. They were being assured that their persecutors will one day (specifically "that Day") be paid back by God - the Judge of all - not by us in this world. Quite the contrary, Paul is encouraging them to continue in their patient way to endure all suffering in the knowledge that God will repay all works, good and bad.

Lon, is that love? Flaming fire and vengence? How about you Nicholsmom? Was Paul mistaken, and God does not find it righteous to repay those who trouble you with tribulation? I think the olny problem is identifying those who trouble you.

God finds it righteous for Him to repay. God is quite clear in this:

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Romans 12:19​

If somebody cuts me off in traffic, so what. I have a fast car, I will make my own lane.

When keypurr or some other piece of **** comes in here and spreads lies about God, that is trouble. I have a problem with it. And I will repay them with tribulation. Or any other vile demon that comes here, and promotes evil wicked behavior, such as social liberals. They are going to hear about. My gut tells me to do it, and the Bible shows me I am right for doing so.

You are right - it is your flesh telling you to take God's exclusive right unto yourself - but you, Christian, are called not to natural nor fleshly behavior; rather you are called to super-natural behavior:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 5:39​

 

[Clete]

(Job 38: 4-7) (God asks Job the following):

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Notice that the angels (morning stars) were in attendance and sang for joy when God created the earth. Angels, therefore, existed before mankind was formed from the dust of the ground.

Now that you know that angels existed before mankind was created, you might want to reconsider your answer as to what are "primary purpose" is.

I didn't say that angels weren't created before man was created, I said, - wait - the BIBLE said that they were created during the creation week. Since the bible seems to intentionally blur the distinction between angels and the stars in the sky, I'd say they were created on day 4 of the creation week (Genesis 1:16-19).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Where does it say they were created during creation week? Every mention of stars does not refer to angels.

I think creation week relates to the universe/earth/man, not the angelic realm which probably predated this week (but not necessarily by a long time?).