ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

DFT_Dave

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This is like saying "there is no distinction from Dave and his heart even though they occupy the same space." Dave occupies and is the space where his heart is at, but this is only a tiny part of Dave. Dave is the heart, but the heart is not all of Dave. The OV has Dave wondering what is happening with his fingertips because he doesn't know.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of Jehovah as the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He will.

No, because space (something to measure) is required for something to be measured. Without it (God doesn't have it, He's not physical) --> no time.

If Dave is his heart he is also his fingers and everyother part so he knows what he is doing with his fingers. Maybe you should just give straight answers your illustrations usually don't make sence to us.

"The king's heart is in the hand of Jehovah as the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He will", this is how I have been explainning OV, God does whatever he wants, whenever he wants, if he wants, unless we are all pupits.

--Dave
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
You can show me scripture, but I also want you to reason this through for me.

It is akin to telling someone "you can read any book in the world, but you can only read the Bible if God lets you." Logically, it makes no since because applying the skill of reading is the same for any book, so why should I need God just to read his book? Does that make since? I just want you to understand my confusion.

So if you please, show me scripturally, and show me logically why.

There is a difference between reading the words contained in the bible, and having faith (believing) the words contained in the bible.

Ungodly men can read God's words, but they will not believe them, but will consider them to be foolishness. I Corinthians 2:14

Two reasons why:

1. The words of God (Holy Scripture) can only be discerned spiritually. One cannot find life by reasoning through the Scriptures (John 5:39), even though God's word is quite reasonable. One must be indwelt by the Holy Spirit to possess this spiritual discernment of divine truths.

2. God has cursed mankind with enmity against Himself as punishment for breaking His Law, and this curse actively prevents sinners from believing God's words. Only and unless God extends His mercy, grace, and Holy Spirit to a sinner, working repentance and faith in His word, can the Scriptures be spiritually discerned. Which means, the curse must first be removed. And Christ became a curse for His people on the cross. Galatians 3:13

Therefore, God is in sovereign control of who will believe or who will not.

This is taught clearly in Isaiah 6:9-10 43:7-13 and the N.T. teachings of Jesus, John, and Paul:

Matthew 13:13-17, Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:10, John 12:37-41,
Acts 28:24-28, Romans 11:7-8, II Corinthians 4:3-4.

To this day, unbelieving Jews have a "veil" that lies on their hearts, preventing them from coming to faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. See II Corinthians 3:13-16 and:

"Even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them." II Corinthians 4:3-4

This is the Lord's doing. He is sovereign over salvation.

Nang
 

Lon

Well-known member
If Dave is his heart he is also his fingers and everyother part so he knows what he is doing with his fingers. Maybe you should just give straight answers your illustrations usually don't make sence to us.
I use analogy in the hopes a light might spark. The orthodox views of God's immutability, omniscience, omnipotence, etc. are plain enough but when they don't suffice, I begin thinking of ways to make them tangible. They are logical and sound from scripture.
There is nothing outside of God and He is not a physical being. Many scientists and mathematicians understand the link between increments and the physical universe (time-space). The two are intricately connected and it doesn't do first) to not understand the connection and second) to try and separate them. There is some separation of course, but when, at least I, am talking about time, it involves space as well. God's person has no containment. Without containment, we can't have incremental measurement. We only observe this as God interacts with us, but He is completely outside of our universe. Just ponder for a moment that God has no beginning. You cannot assign sequence to such a truth, because it is still going to eternity (not was going). God's past is currently continuing behind us into eternity. This comes with the package of God having no beginning and must necessarily boggle our minds. Why? Because we only think in our created physical parameters and time has no concept of what we are talking about. God is already beyond our concept and measurement of time. We cannot, with these terms, apprehend that which is God's nonbeginning but it is obvious enough that He is beyond them.

"The king's heart is in the hand of Jehovah as the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He will", this is how I have been explainning OV, God does whatever he wants, whenever he wants, if he wants, unless we are all pupits.

--Dave
Yes, I know that the open view acknowledges this but it is more involved than occassional interventions in my understanding. I believe them foreknown completely.
 

Totton Linnet

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You have no regard for what this verse clearly says. You're reinterpreting scripture, as so many do, in order to fit your idea that God is.

--Dave

You say God has a future, I say God IS the future. I really don't see why mine is the reinterpretation. It is the meaning of God's name Jahweh "...I will be what will be" Jesus said "I am [Jahweh] the resurrection and the life" He upholds the creation by the word of His power...how then can anything be outside of God except chaos, if OTs say God does not comprehend chaos..."He does not know the unknowable" I say He does and creates from out of the nothingness of chaos that which appears and He sets it in order. Thus God is shown doing throughout all scripture.
 

Hilston

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Since when does God have to "depend" on his knowledge and experience of the world in order to know what is or is not logical or validate the law of identity?
How else does the God of the Open View know anything if He doesn't depend on His own knowledge and experience? Does He drink a knowledge potion? Is there a being greater than God who has told Him that the law of identity is valid?

God is intrisically logical, …
What does that mean? Can the Open View God be illogical if He wants to be? According to the Open View, God is absolutely free to do whatever He wants, whenever He wants. Does that mean God can choose to be illogical? If so, then He is not "intrinsically" logical.

In OV, God is free and not dependent upon the world to know what or what not is true.
Then how does God know what is or is not true?

... If God decreed the existence of everyone, everything, and every event--past, present, and future, and if he is "in" everything and everything is "in" him from all eternity then there is no distinction between the world and God, no distinction between what is eternal and what is not, no distinction between what God is doing and what is happening in the world.
No one believes all that. You're arguing against a straw man.

Hilston
 
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Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
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Yes positively we can, inasmuch as God has foretold things that are yet to come to pass those things do exist, they exist in God.

"I am what am and I will be what will be"
I asked you to show me, and you did not.

All you have done is show me that God can determine His course of action before He actually takes it, which is no surprise as I am capable of as much and I am merely human.
 

Totton Linnet

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I asked you to show me, and you did not.

All you have done is show me that God can determine His course of action before He actually takes it, which is no surprise as I am capable of as much and I am merely human.

I can show you God's word, it is choc a bloc FULL of the future, a GLORIOUS future. A future where God's kingdom will come His will be done on earth as it is in heaven..what oh what more can you want?

As to your second point I had to smile because you show exactly the difference between you and God...you are NOT capable of actually taking the course of action you determined as God is. Your "I wills and I shalls" are worth nothing in comparison to God's "I wills and I shalls"...the best you can say is "I hope I shall...or even better God willing I shall"
 
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DFT_Dave

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LIFETIME MEMBER
I use analogy in the hopes a light might spark. The orthodox views of God's immutability, omniscience, omnipotence, etc. are plain enough but when they don't suffice, I begin thinking of ways to make them tangible. They are logical and sound from scripture.

There is nothing outside of God and He is not a physical being.

Many scientists and mathematicians understand the link between increments and the physical universe (time-space). The two are intricately connected and it doesn't do first) to not understand the connection and second) to try and separate them. There is some separation of course, but

when, at least I, am talking about time, it involves space as well.

God's person has no containment. Without containment, we can't have incremental measurement.

We only observe this as God interacts with us, but He is completely outside of our universe.

Just ponder for a moment that God has no beginning. You cannot assign sequence to such a truth, because it is still going to eternity (not was going). God's past is currently continuing behind us into eternity. This comes with the package of God having no beginning and must necessarily boggle our minds. Why? Because we only think in our created physical parameters and time has no concept of what we are talking about.

God is already beyond our concept and measurement of time. We cannot, with these terms, apprehend that which is God's nonbeginning but it is obvious enough that He is beyond them.

Yes, I know that the open view acknowledges this but it is more involved than occassional interventions in my understanding. I believe them foreknown completely.

Christ was a physical being who occupyed time and space. Do you deny that Christ was God?

Do our thoughts and ideas occupy space? Do our words occupy space? Does love occupy space?

Communication requires time but does not occupy space.

How can God "interact" with us who are inside our universe and yet be "completely outside of our universe". Interact means to act within.

"There is nothing outside of God...He is completely outside of our universe."

If God is completely outside of our universe then the universe is outside of God and contradicts there is nothing outside of God. See what happens when you try to explain what is irrational.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

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How else does the God of the Open View know anything if He doesn't depend on His own knowledge and experience? Does He drink a knowledge potion? Is there a being greater than God who has told Him that the law of identity is valid?

What does that mean? Can the Open View God be illogical if He wants to be? According to the Open View, God is absolutely free to do whatever He wants, whenever He wants. Does that mean God can choose to be illogical? If so, then He is not "intrinsically" logical.

Then how does God know what is or is not true?

No one believes all that. You're arguing against a straw man.

Hilston

God did not have to create the world and the world does not have to exist in order for him to be God or to know anything.

Saying God can "do", or create, whatever he wants is not the same thing as saying God can "be", or change himself into, whatever he wants. God cannot "be" illogical/irrational.

You deny the logical conclusion of what it means if God is "timeless" because it makes God being "timeless" an irrational absurdity.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

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You say God has a future, I say God IS the future. I really don't see why mine is the reinterpretation. It is the meaning of God's name Jahweh "...I will be what will be" Jesus said "I am [Jahweh] the resurrection and the life" He upholds the creation by the word of His power...how then can anything be outside of God except chaos, if OTs say God does not comprehend chaos..."He does not know the unknowable" I say He does and creates from out of the nothingness of chaos that which appears and He sets it in order. Thus God is shown doing throughout all scripture.

The scripture says that God has a future of "things not yet done" it does not say that God does everything all at once.

--Dave
 

Totton Linnet

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The scripture says that God has a future of "things not yet done" it does not say that God does everything all at once.

--Dave

Yes but that future is IN Him, it is just as real and certain as though it were a present reality...this is the crux of the christian faith, God has promised us a ressurection, Jesus IS the ressurection and the life.

The fact that God has not yet done it does not make it any less a solid fact. Those future events are IN God now.
 
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Hilston

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God did not have to create the world and the world does not have to exist in order for him to be God or to know anything.
That is true for the Settled View. But how can that be true for the God of the Open View? If God needs to wait for the future to happen before He knows what it will be, then why doesn't God also need to test all cases of logic before He knows if logical laws are consistent and true?

Saying God can "do", or create, whatever he wants is not the same thing as saying God can "be", or change himself into, whatever he wants. God cannot "be" illogical/irrational.
On the Open View, can God choose to do something illogical? Or is He not free, as the Open View defines it?

You deny the logical conclusion of what it means if God is "timeless" because it makes God being "timeless" an irrational absurdity.
Open Theists are not qualified to ascertain rationality or absurdity, because their worldview can neither sustain nor justify the concept, nor its application. If you think it can, then I'm all ears. Based on Open View premises, taken to their logical conclusion, God is in the same boat as atheists when it comes to logic: no assurance of its verity and therefore no justification for its use.

Hilston
 

DFT_Dave

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Yes but that future is IN Him, it is just as real and certain as though it were a present reality...this is the crux of the christian faith, God has promised us a ressurection, Jesus IS the ressuection and the life.

The fact that God has not yet done it does not make it any less a solid fact. Those future events are IN God now.

A future event for God is not "now" for God, this is an irrational statement for an irrational faith. That Jesus is the resurrection and the life does not mean we are already resurrected (we're not even dead yet) and in heaven, or hell. We cannot be both in the present and in the future, or the past, at the same time if we are finite.

--Dave
 

Totton Linnet

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A future event for God is not "now" for God, this is an irrational statement for an irrational faith. That Jesus is the resurrection and the life does not mean we are already resurrected (we're not even dead yet) and in heaven, or hell. We cannot be both in the present and in the future, or the past, at the same time if we are finite.

--Dave

But dear boy that is exactly where rationality fails and faith the mighty victor, for inasmuch as God has declared it it IS fact, we go by faith and not by sight. Are you not sure of the ressurection? why? because God has declared it...then it is a present reality, we live now in accordance with our faith in it.
 

DFT_Dave

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That is true for the Settled View. But how can that be true for the God of the Open View? If God needs to wait for the future to happen before He knows what it will be, then why doesn't God also need to test all cases of logic before He knows if logical laws are consistent and true?

On the Open View, can God choose to do something illogical? Or is He not free, as the Open View defines it?

Open Theists are not qualified to ascertain rationality or absurdity, because their worldview can neither sustain nor justify the concept, nor its application. If you think it can, then I'm all ears. Based on Open View premises, taken to their logical conclusion, God is in the same boat as atheists when it comes to logic: no assurance of its verity and therefore no justification for its use.

Hilston

Your questions demonstrate that you've paid no attention to what I have already said. Logical laws are consistent and true within the Trinity as said earlier and need not be tested in the world by God in order to know if they are valid. God could not "do" what is illogical because he "is" not illogical in nature.

It's illogical to ask, is God free to do something illogical. Freedom has nothing to do with an illogical act. God is free to create the world or not. There is no such thing as the freedom to create and not create the world at the same time, which would be God doing what is illogical--not possible.

--Dave
 

Paidion

New member
Open Theists believe in the Omniscience of God

It is commonly assumed among those who do not understand Open Theism, that its proponents do not believe in God’s omniscience. This is a mistake assumption. Open theists, like nearly all other Christians do believe in the omniscience of God.

Disagreement with Calvinists, Arminians, and Molinists does not concern the scope of God’s knowledge, but rather the content of reality. Open theists do not believe that statements about future freely-chosen actions have present truth value. Rather statements about future freely-chosen actions either express intention or prediction.

In formal logic, all statements do have truth value, and the law of the excluded middle requires all statements to be either true or false. If we accept this description of statements, then open theists must exclude sentences about future freely-chosen acts from the category of “statements”. Perhaps they can be better classified as “meta-statements.”

It seems obvious that if meta-statements about future actions of a person have truth value now, then the person does not have free will. For example, if it is now true that Joe will raise his hand tomorrow morning, then Joe cannot refrain from raising his hand tomorrow morning. For, if he refrains from raising his hand tomorrow morning then it is not now true that he will raise his hand tomorrow morning. Similarly, if it is now false that Joe will raise his hand tomorrow morning, then he cannot raise his hand at that time. Thus, in either case, there is something Joe cannot do, and so he does not have the freedom to choose. Thus there is a logical contradiction between statements about future actions of people having present truth value, and freedom of choice. This argument logically extends to all other meta-statements about future actions of people, for other meta-statements are not of a different order, and thus cannot be excluded.

For one to know that a statement is true, it is a necessary condition that the statement is, in fact, true. For example, I may claim that I know that my wife is now at home. However, if you prove to me that she is not at home, then I will no longer claim that I know that she is at home. I can only say that I thought I knew. Similarly, If one knows that a statement is false, then the statement is, necessarily, false. No one can know the truth value of a “statement” which is neither true nor false (hereafter called “meta-statement”). Meta-statements have no truth value. So there is nothing to know!

The statement that my wife is now at home does have a truth value. It is either true or false. Thus it is possible to know that my wife is at home ---- or that she is not at home. However, the meta-statement that my wife will use the internet tomorrow does not have a truth value. It is not actually a statement about what will absolutely occur. It is a prediction. It may be a very good prediction (based on her past actions, or knowing her character). But my wife may not use the internet tomorrow. She may choose to do something else instead. Whether or not my wife will use the internet tomorrow cannot be known.

Other “statements” about freely-chosen future actions may express intentions. I may say, “I am going to town tomorrow.” This meta-statement will become a statement with truth value when I have made my choice. What I really mean by this meta-statement is "I intend to go to town tomorrow." And this is a not a meta-statement but a statement with truth value.

When God makes statements about future actions of people, He is not making an absolute statement about what necessarily must occur. Rather He is making a prediction of what will probably occur. His prediction is based on all the information He possesses concerning the people involved and the related circumstances (and that is exhaustive information). Thus God’s predictions are much more likely to come true than predictions made by anyone else. For everyone else’s knowledge of the people involved and the related circumstances is limited. However, regardless of whether the relevant knowledge is exhaustive or limited, the people about whom the prediction is made may choose to do otherwise, and so the prediction will not be actualized. Here is one record in which God thought something would happen, and the opposite occurred.

"I thought, ‘After she [Israel] has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return … Jeremiah 3:7 NASB

I know the King James and related versions (Douay, JB2000, KJ21, NKJV, RWebster) translate “Return to me” as if it were a command, but the imperative mode is used neither in the Hebrew nor in the Septuagint. Other translations have either “I thought (or “said”) ‘… she will return to me’…” or “I thought (or “said”) ‘…she would return to me’...” These translations include ASV, Darby, ESV, JPS (Jewish Publication Society), NASB, NIV, RSV, NRSV.

Personally, I see the denotation of “meta-statement” as extending to all sentences about future events, not merely those about freely-chosen future actions, the reason being that free agents may intervene in events, or God may intervene or God may change His mind. Even astronomical events which seem to be totally predictable and inevitable, may not occur if God should intervene, or if man should intervene (by way of gigantic nuclear explosions, for example).

However, God makes some statements about His future intentions about which He states that He will not change His mind. Such statements, and only such statements, would seem to be exceptions to my suggestion that all statements about future events are really “meta-statements” with no truth value.

To affirm that God knows the logically unknowable, that is, that He knows the truth value of meta-statements which have no truth value, is inherently self-contradictory. Thus, saying that God does not know people’s future choices no more sets limits on God’s omniscience than to affirm that God cannot create a stone so large that He can’t lift it, sets limits on His omnipotence.

However, God does know everyone’s present intentions, and those intentions are likely to lead to future actions.
 
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