ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

Lighthouse

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I follow the dynamic, triune God that you do. I reject the Calvinistic misrepresentation of God. I do not follow Allah (false god), Buddha, etc.

How is my God false? What area of doctrine of God/Christology do we disagree on? Deity of Christ? Resurrection of Christ? Virgin conception? Trinity?

Don't be a dope.:down: MAD and Exchanged Life are not the core doctrine of God/Christology (we have the same view on the latter or you are not a Christian).
You deny the truth that is plainly stated in Scripture. I posted that sin is not imputed to those who are in Christ and you responded that sin is not something that can be imputed. I showed you several verses that show that sin is not imputed [those exact words] in various cases; i.e. when there is no law, under grace [which is a case when there is no law], etc. and you continued to claim sin was not something that could be imputed. Case closed.
 

godrulz

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You deny the truth that is plainly stated in Scripture. I posted that sin is not imputed to those who are in Christ and you responded that sin is not something that can be imputed. I showed you several verses that show that sin is not imputed [those exact words] in various cases; i.e. when there is no law, under grace [which is a case when there is no law], etc. and you continued to claim sin was not something that could be imputed. Case closed.

There are various theories of imputation held by equally capable, godly believers. This is in the area of hamartiology/soteriology. Your false accusation was that I have a defective doctrine of God/Christology (which means you do too since we agree on these core truths).

You need to do a Greek word study on imputation. I believe in biblical imputation, not exchanged life heretical views. In your arrogance, you assume that you are infallible and that rejecting your wrong view is tantamount to rejecting God/Bible (properly understood).

You have the spirit and mind of sozo/stp/nick, not the spirit/mind of Christ in your false accusations.

Honestly, people who cannot reasonably debate nuanced theological discussions with fellow believers should not be on forums like this (argumentum ad hominem is a waste of time, as is assuming differences are always salvific or definitive...some peripheral issues simply have not gained unanimity in 2000 years...get over it and yourself).
 

Totton Linnet

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I agree with everything you are saying in this post. My view that God has time or is not "timeless", has no time, works with what you are saying here. Are you one of us? Are you an open theist?

--Dave

No, no I am not Dave. I believe something which to my mind is more dynamic [we, if our opinions have any worth are all gunna stand by our guns] I believe God IS that is to say He is always in the now, but He knows the end from the beginning...I think the scripture is He calls the end from the beginning.

When the grieving Martha met Jesus she said "Lord if You had been here..." she is like so many of us, maybe ALL of us, we have a whimsical, philosophical kind of loyal faith in Christ...we do not like to accuse Him of lacking in either power or compassion.

Jesus said "your brother will rise"

Martha said "I know he will rise in the great resurrection" there we are again off now into the future with our faith, we ALL seem to have this faith that God once did mighty things and that He will one day do mighty things again.

But Jesus said "Martha I am the resurrection and the life...take Me to him"

We need to get God in the NOW and it is no easy matter for any of us...for one thing we had better be holy, not like Ananias and Saphira...and here in IF WE WOULD BE HONEST everyone of us is the place where we each one turn away...we do it on a personal level with God, the church has done it and the Jews did it from the start asking for a king to rule over them...if somebody walks close to the Lord they must walk softly...I am being honest about me as much as anyone else reading this, the thing is difficult but if we would FACE UP to it we would start to get somewhere.

But people turn away instead unto diverse teachings.....

One GREAT AND MIGHTY help in all of this is to know that if He calls anyone unto holiness He intends to call many together. He really doesn't expect us to stand alone...hence times of refreshing and revival when suddenly the God we believe in springs out of the bible and becomes as real and LIVING as of old.
 
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bybee

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No, no I am not Dave. I believe something which to my mind is more dynamic [we, if our opinions have any worth are all gunna stand by our guns] I believe God IS that is to say He is always in the now, but He knows the end from the beginning...I think the scripture is He calls the end from the beginning.

When the grieving Martha met Jesus she said "Lord if You had been here..." she is like so many of us, maybe ALL of us, we have a whimsecal, philosophical kind of loyal faith in Christ...we do not like to accuse Him of lacking in either power or compassion.

Jesus said "your brother will rise"

Martha said "I know he will rise in the great resurrection" there we are again off now into the future with our faith, we ALL seem to have this faith that God once did mighty things and that He will one day do mighty things again.

But Jesus said "Martha I am the resurrection and the life...take Me to him"

We need to get God in the NOW and it is no easy matter for any of us...for one thing we had better be holy, not like Ananias and Saphira...and here in IF WE WOULD BE HONEST everyone of us is the place where we each one turn away...we do it on a personal level with God, the church has done it and the Jews did it from the start asking for a king to rule over them...if somebody walks close to the Lord they must walk softly...I am being honest about me as much as anyone else reading this, the thing is difficult but if we would FACE UP to it we would start to get somewhere.

But people turn away instead unto diverse teachings.....

One GREAT AND MIGHTY help in all of this is to know that if He calls anyone unto holiness He intends to call many together. He really doesn't expect us to stand alone...hence times of refreshing and revival when suddenly the God we believe in springs out of the bible and becomes as real and LIVING as of old.

By my intellect I search scriptures and listen to the testimony of other Christians.
But my heart responds in the now. I am not a spiritual glutton given to total emotional free for all. I am fearful of that.
But I do feel the presence of God in my life. Sometimes it is "the still small voice..."(I always get goosebumps over that passage). Sometimes God gifts me with that momentary sense of "at-one-ness" with all that is good and holy. And sometimes I know I am in the Presence of God because I am called to stand up and do the right thing when really, I'd prefer to slink away and keep the peace. I know that there is no peace without the honorable behavior which defends our rights.
I respect the theologians who seek to uncover the foundations of faith and practice.
I respect the Clergy who routinely call us to faith and practice.
I am blessed with simple faith which I practice on a daily basis.
It is so important to enter into fellowship to share our gifts.
 

Clete

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Totton,

Would you agree that if a truth claim, including a theological one, where shown to be irrational that it would thereby be proven false?
 

assuranceagent

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Totton,

Would you agree that if a truth claim, including a theological one, where shown to be irrational that it would thereby be proven false?

Well, it wasn't for me, but you've asked it twice so I'll venture a response:

I would not agree.

The infinity of the Divine.
The Trinity.
The Incarnation.
The Resurrection.

Which of those, if explained to a man on the street, is "rational?"

God, by His very nature, defies human reason.
 

Lighthouse

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There are various theories of imputation held by equally capable, godly believers. This is in the area of hamartiology/soteriology. Your false accusation was that I have a defective doctrine of God/Christology (which means you do too since we agree on these core truths).
I never accused you of having a defective doctrine. I just don't believe you know God.

You need to do a Greek word study on imputation. I believe in biblical imputation, not exchanged life heretical views. In your arrogance, you assume that you are infallible and that rejecting your wrong view is tantamount to rejecting God/Bible (properly understood).
:blabla:

If I thought I was infallible I would still agree with you, as I did when I joined TOL.

And I don't think rejecting my view is the same as rejecting God. I do, however, think that denying what the Bible plainly states is evidence one is not in communion with God.

I don't even think you're rejecting God. I just don't think you know Him. And that is evidenced by your denial of the text.

And your backpedaling won't save you. When this argument began you didn't tell me my definition, or idea, of imputation was wrong; you flat out said sin could not be imputed.

And to make matters worse you have no idea what my definition of imputed is.

You have the spirit and mind of sozo/stp/nick, not the spirit/mind of Christ in your false accusations.
What false accusations?

And is there a reason you refuse to consider the possibility that the fact the four of us don't believe you're saved might have some merit? Are you, perhaps, arrogant?

Honestly, people who cannot reasonably debate nuanced theological discussions with fellow believers should not be on forums like this (argumentum ad hominem is a waste of time, as is assuming differences are always salvific or definitive...some peripheral issues simply have not gained unanimity in 2000 years...get over it and yourself).
I can reasonably debate any number of things, and I have witnesses to back me up. I don't dismiss some of the others around her as unsaved if they disagree with me. Take andyc for example; I believe him to be deceived by people like you, and also by you as you have influenced him in his time here. But I do not think him to be unsaved.
 

Hilston

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assuranceagent points out something that is massively relevant concerning Clete's question, namely, the infinitude of God. Clete asked, "Would you agree that if a truth claim, including a theological one, where shown to be irrational that it would thereby be proven false?"

An insurmountable problem for Open Theists is that, given their espoused view taken to its logical conclusion, their conception of God is of One that is not infinite. Being subject to time and having limits on His knowledge, God is not able to be truly rational -- according to the Open View taken to its logical conclusion.

Rationality is based either on faith or on infinite knowledge and experience. For finite humans, rationality must be based on faith and requires a Source of infinite knowledge upon which that faith must rest.

Atheists have no grounds for their reliance upon logic and their appeals to rationality. Whereas theists do have grounds, provided they believe in a God who is infinite in knowledge and experience (i.e., not subject to time).

That is to say, for instance, that we know induction is reliable -- not because our experience has proven it, since we do not have infinite experience -- but because God has affirmed its reliability, based on His own infinite experience. In other words, since God knows all things and can speak authoritatively and justifiably concerning all cases of induction, we have grounds upon which to rely on induction. Again, rationality is based on faith; faith in the Infinite God who knows all things and is outside of time.

So when Clete asks, "Would you agree that if a truth claim, including a theological one, where shown to be irrational that it would thereby be proven false?" it's clear that he hasn't given adequate consideration to the incongruity of his question, given his espoused theology taken to its logical conclusion. The question itself belies his theory of God's nature.

An Open Theist cannot even pose a question concerning rationality without undermining their conception of God. Said another way, an Open Theist cannot hold to their conception of God and justify any question whatever concerning rationality. On the Open Theist's view taken to its logical conclusion, there can be no logic, no rationality; only lucky guesses, both by man and by God.

And isn't this exactly what the Open View teaches? God uses trial and error. God guesses incorrectly sometime. Induction and the laws of logic are out of even God's reach, because one must have faith upon some Source of infinite knowledge that can justify one's reliance upon logic. And since there is no one bigger than God, the Open View (and their God) are truly without any assurance whatsoever in the world; only lucky guesses and trial and error.

Hilston
 

Totton Linnet

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Totton,

Would you agree that if a truth claim, including a theological one, where shown to be irrational that it would thereby be proven false?

I am sorry I missed your question the first time round, if you state why you think bible foreknowledge predestiny and omniscience [to deny omniscience neccesarily denies omnipotence] are irrational we can get somewhere on that. Assurance agent gave a perfect answer to the limited question.

The truth as it is in Jesus simply IS not rational, indeed it is designed to be rejected by the wise and prudent of this age as folly. To the spiritually enlightened mind it is completely rational and satisfying. To the humble seeker of truth it is a delight and refreshment.

Apart from a statement about MAD the link to your question gives me nothing else to respond to. But yes I go with Assurance on this one
 

Totton Linnet

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I feel once again that Martha shows why in a moment of anguish of soul or sorrow or disappointment....we try to rationalise why an all knowing all powerful Christ seemed to fail us, surely her "Lord if You had been here...." was an affirmation that she believed in His omiscience [mind though they had sent word concerning Lazurus' illness, but Christ knew it was unto death]

People do not accuse God directly when there is an apparent failure of faith...they grieve and they rationalize, but for ought I know their rationalizing does not truly comfort the heart.
 

Totton Linnet

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What shows to me the all knowingness and all powerfulness of His nature [for to deny omniscience is to deny omnipotence] are not the mountains or the roaring oceans, the mighty oak trees but the intricacies of a butterfly wing the design of an ant.

Sparrows do not simply fall and God knows...but He takes their breath and they die...the very old puritans really did see the hand of God in EVERYTHING.
 

godrulz

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My cat kills birds and mice in our yard. God sees and knows about it when it happens. The cat, not God, is the cause of the bird's death. You underestimate the creaturely freedom God has given and overestimate omnicausality that would impugn His character and ways in relation to heinous evil.
 

Hilston

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My cat kills birds and mice in our yard. God sees and knows about it when it happens.
Since God is subject to time and does not have infinite knowledge and experience, how does He know that He is not mistaken in His observation of the cat's deeds? How does God know that His senses are reliable and that His logical faculties comport with reality?

The cat, not God, is the cause of the bird's death. You underestimate the creaturely freedom God has given and overestimate omnicausality that would impugn His character and ways in relation to heinous evil.
How does omnicausality impugn God's character? According to what standard?

Hilston
 

Totton Linnet

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My cat kills birds and mice in our yard. God sees and knows about it when it happens. The cat, not God, is the cause of the bird's death. You underestimate the creaturely freedom God has given and overestimate omnicausality that would impugn His character and ways in relation to heinous evil.

Natures William, cats will kill birds, God actively rules through the nature for instance of Pharoah, God takes him hand and teaches the world a lesson or two about tyranny and oppression and a whole lot of other things as well.

He could only do so through a uniquely prepared vessel like Moses.

It is greed and lust for power that drives men like the Ptolemy's to murder and intrigue their way to power...just like Herod and Annas and Caiphas. Conniving and treachery brought Pilate to his place of power and so it goes on. God knows all about it and He rules and overules and raises up and throws down to cause HIS plan to come to pass...even through the evil that men do.

If Pilate's wife had not "suffered much in a dream" concerning Jesus Pilate was so frightened by Jesus he might have set Him free.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I would not agree.

The infinity of the Divine.
The Trinity.
The Incarnation.
The Resurrection.

Which of those, if explained to a man on the street, is "rational?"

I do not believe any of the above doctrines fail the Law of Contradiction.

Otherwise, you are claiming these are all irrational teachings!

These doctrines are given to regenerated souls by a rational God, whose revelation (Holy Scripture) is consistent and logical. (John 1:1)

Nang
 

assuranceagent

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I do not believe any of the above doctrines fail the Law of Contradiction.

Otherwise, you are claiming these are all irrational teachings!

These doctrines are given to regenerated souls by a rational God, whose revelation (Holy Scripture) is consistent and logical. (John 1:1)

Nang

Rationality is defined as that pertaining to and in keeping with reason.

It is not reasonable to believe the infinite became a man.
It is not reasonable to believe in infinity at all.
It is not reasonable to believe that Three can be One and One can be Three.
It is not reasonable to believe that a man may come back from death.

This is why all these things must be revealed by the working of the Spirit. To the "rational" man, they are foolishness.

To put it another way: Man, without the revelation of God in His word, would never have reasoned his way through from creation to the doctrines of grace and glory. Yet those doctrines are no less true for that fact.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Rationality is defined as that pertaining to and in keeping with reason.

It is not reasonable to believe the infinite became a man.
It is not reasonable to believe in infinity at all.
It is not reasonable to believe that Three can be One and One can be Three.
It is not reasonable to believe that a man may come back from death.

This is why all these things must be revealed by the working of the Spirit. To the "rational" man, they are foolishness.

To put it another way: Man, without the revelation of God in His word, would never have reasoned his way through from creation to the doctrines of grace and glory. Yet those doctrines are no less true for that fact.

I agree with you completely that these truths cannot be known by sinners until and unless they are regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, who leads the reborn soul and mind into all understanding of the revelations of God. (John 16:13)

That said, I will claim that the doctrines you listed are not unreasonable, nor irrational . . . but it is unrepentant sinners who are unreasonable and irrational.

There is therefore no cause to think that the Christian must avoid rationality or reason in order to execute faith in the Word of God. If the Holy Scriptures themselves are not rational, and logical, and founded on literal propositions, there is NO truth to be discovered and/or known.

Nang
 

Hilston

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Assuranceagent,

I don't mean to be contrary, but I have to disagree with your statements above. I think you may have (perhaps unwittingly) bought into the Enlightenment's notion of "rationality," which is really code for a God-less worldview. Justified, true, biblical rationality does not allow for contradictions, and there are no contradictions in the examples you've cited. Or you've possibly confused "not rational" with "not fully understood." One can think of lots of examples of things that at one time were not fully understood that may have been regarded as "not rational."

Rationality is defined as that pertaining to and in keeping with reason.
I agree with this definition, but only if by reason we are referring to reason that is biblically based.

It is not reasonable to believe the infinite became a man.
Although the so-called "wise" and "learned" men of the world would view this as "irrational," it is not irrational from a Biblical standpoint. Christ did not cease to be infinite by taking on corporeality. We may not understand how the Infinite took upon the finite, but that doesn't mean it is contrary to reason. We are merely ignorant of exactly how it was done. By comparison, one might have argued that the notion of voices traveling thousands of miles invisibly through the air is not reasonable, but that assessment would be based upon ignorance, not upon some contradiction with reason. Today we understand radio waves and cellular telephone technology, and we would no longer consider it to be contrary to reason.

It is not reasonable to believe in infinity at all.
On the contrary, one must believe in the Infinite in order to justifiably reason at all. Just because we cannot comprehend infinity doesn't make it unreasonable. In fact, the existence of reason itself affirms the Infinite, and all reasonable men (not by Enlightenment definitions) should take the very existence of reason to its logical conclusion, namely, the existence of the Infinite God. This is Romans 1 in a nutshell.

It is not reasonable to believe that Three can be One and One can be Three.
On the contrary, there are all sorts of analogies that bring the concept of the Trinity "down to earth," so to speak. Of course, as with all analogies, they are not perfect, nor is there ever perfect correspondence, but the analogies show that the concept is not contrary to reason. Again, we may not fully understand it, but that does not make it irrational or contrary to reason.

It is not reasonable to believe that a man may come back from death.
Again, just because we do not know how God does it, does not make it contrary to reason. It may be contrary to past experience, or contrary to the hitherto advances in science and medicine, but that does not make it unreasonable or irrational. It is important to note that miracles, signs and wonders are defined biblically from the standpoint of the human observer, not from the standpoint of God. That is to say, if something appeared to be out of the normal course of nature, it was considered to be miraculous or a "sign and wonder." For God, that is, from His standpoint, since He holds all things together (down to the very atoms), there are only the normal course of things and the out-of-the-normal events. The latter were regarded as miracles, signs and wonders. But the latter are no more the work of God than the former.

This is why all these things must be revealed by the working of the Spirit. To the "rational" man, they are foolishness.
To be clear, all men can see the rationality of God and His Word -- as God has clearly revealed Himself to all men, and within them -- but they will refuse to acknowledge God and His Word as such. It's not that God's Word or God Himself are deficient in their revelation, but rather that the heart of fallen man is hardened against them. The work of the Spirit is not that of convincing fallen men to accept the irrational or non-rational, but rather to embrace the singular source of true, justified rationality, namely, God and His Word.

To put it another way: Man, without the revelation of God in His word, would never have reasoned his way through from creation to the doctrines of grace and glory. Yet those doctrines are no less true for that fact.
But it's not because God and His Word are "not rational" or defy the faculties of reason; that is, it's not a question of comprehensibility or content. Rather, it is strictly moral. Fallen man is unwilling, rebellious and resistant to the clear, rational and comprehensible truth of God and of His Word.

Hilston
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Rationality is defined as that pertaining to and in keeping with reason.

It is not reasonable to believe the infinite became a man.
It is not reasonable to believe in infinity at all.
It is not reasonable to believe that Three can be One and One can be Three.
It is not reasonable to believe that a man may come back from death.

This is why all these things must be revealed by the working of the Spirit. To the "rational" man, they are foolishness.

To put it another way: Man, without the revelation of God in His word, would never have reasoned his way through from creation to the doctrines of grace and glory. Yet those doctrines are no less true for that fact.
Careful here, for you are on the slippery slope of claiming we believers have no rational warrant for our worldview, contra

1. God uniquely accounts for the physical universe's beginning
2. God uniquely accounts for the order, complexity, and design evident in the universe
3. God uniquely accounts for the reality of abstract, nonphysical realites
4. God uniquely accounts for the reality of objective ethical values
5. God uniquely accounts for the meaning, purpose, and significance that human beings sense and yearn for
6. God uniquely accounts for man's sense of the divine
7. God uniquely accounts for the enigma of man
8. God uniquely accounts for the claims, character, and credentials of Jesus Christ
9. God uniquely accounts for the meaningful realities of life

For example there is no logically rational contradiction between God being "one what" and "three Whos". ;)

The worldview that can best answer the items noted above is the one that properly functioning reasoned minds should dictate as the right one. And even when mystery is involved, that is no bar to argue irrationality.

Required reading: A World of Difference

AMR
 
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