ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
- Thread starter ChristisKing
- Start date
- Status
http://www.skybooksusa.com/time-travel/timegod/titntest.htm
This is a great site that gives accounts of Old Testament, New Testament and ancient Hebrew of time.
It show how the world in which the New Testament was written was already influenced with Greek views of time. Its inescapable.
This is a great site that gives accounts of Old Testament, New Testament and ancient Hebrew of time.
It show how the world in which the New Testament was written was already influenced with Greek views of time. Its inescapable.
elected4ever
New member
It is not for some particular act but all acts committed in death. A condition we are all born into as a result of Adams death. We are born of corrupt seed into a condition opposed to God's original plan for man. All that opposes God is sin and the condition of man is the condition of death and God's will for man is life. That is a condition called sin because that condition is in opposition to the plan of God for man.
That's why Protestant services seem so different. It's only a "production" or a self designed "event".
The Mass and its understanding hasn't changed since the beginning of the Church. The whole thing is a prayer, with far more Scripture in it than one will find in nearly every Protestant service.
When I go to Mass, I am united through the Body of Christ, with all Christians. One body in Christ.
Interesting..do know both Jewish meanings of the word Bethlehem? House of Meat and House of Bread. Amazing isn't it!
The Mass and its understanding hasn't changed since the beginning of the Church. The whole thing is a prayer, with far more Scripture in it than one will find in nearly every Protestant service.
When I go to Mass, I am united through the Body of Christ, with all Christians. One body in Christ.
Interesting..do know both Jewish meanings of the word Bethlehem? House of Meat and House of Bread. Amazing isn't it!
elected4ever
New member
It does not matter the politics of a church, but to say that a cookie and glass of wine saves is shire stupidity. To say that getting a person wet by what ever means absolves a person from sin and death is shire stupidity. Confessing sins and performing penance releases one from the death that every man suffers in Adam is shire stupidity. How many souls has the pagan priesthood of the RCC sent to hell because they were never told that Christ is the salvation of all men. They are told to do this and to do that when the dead cannot serve God. Only the living can do that.
Elected...You severely do not understand...do not know...what the Catholic Church teaches or is about. Why is it that all Catholic churches have front-and-center a large Crucifix hung in plain view. There must be 20-30 separate instances during every Mass (remember daily Mass is offered in most places) where Christ is mentioned as the source of our salvation. The centerpiece of the Mass is the Liturgy of the Eucharist....where the priest repeats what Jesus said to his Apostles the night before he was crucified. Every Mass follows this model.
You just don't know what the Catholic Church is.
You just don't know what the Catholic Church is.
elected4ever
New member
Don't give me that crap. I married a Catholic. I know you teach works for salvation. I know you perform idle worship. I know that the RCC has no concept of what a saint is. I know that you practice ancestor worship. I know that you count beads like some buddhist monk. I know you pray to the dead, those who have pasted on before, when Jesus said whatever you ask in my name the Father in heaven will give it to you. The RCC is pure pagan. Your priest remind me of the witch of Endor.
elected4ever
New member
I'm sorry. I got carried away.
I have to conclude that you are unable to make a case your self on behave of what you believe, we don't need references here to information on other sites, we need you to make a point an see if it holds up in a debate with others. So make an argument, defend it, explain it, or just read the debates and learn how its done.
Philetus
New member
Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Godrulz’s mention of chaos earlier prompted me to reflection and consideration. (Uh,oh!) One of the greatest challenges facing the church today is this issue of how we view not only the world around us, the multitude of cultural expressions even at the local level, but above all how we see God relating to the world and particularly the church. This ferment within the church is challenging the very way the church does business.
Even the world (of business) is increasingly moving away from the corporate model of management and opting for more organic approaches to leadership and tasking. Maybe the Greeks and barbarians are getting it faster than the church. What is evident in creation is beginning to take hold of the way they do business. At stake for the church are our own kingdoms of command and control, the old top down hierarchies.
Joseph R. Myers has a wonderful little book that just came out: Organic Community. In it he distinguishes between a theology of God as master planner and/or creator of organic order.
A theology of God as master planner implies that God has a purpose, even ONE purpose for your life, “God has a plan for your life” and your TASK is to find THE job, THE spouse, THE house, THE whatever. In this model God only invites cooperation in his master plan, not collaboration.
A theology of God as creator of organic order allows for collaboration with him. We are privileged to participate with him in the forming of our future. He invites our ideas, our energy, our creativity, our perspective. God gives up a measure of control to facilitate relationship with us and to demonstrate his love. He allows us to make choices and through his Spirit offers counsel to help us choose wisely.
The underlying question, which meets with great opposition from the command and control model, is do we see creation as a master blueprint to manipulate and control or do we find more organic ways to live and work together that compliment what we see in nature and even in society? Even the societies of social insects express this truth! (Pr 6:6) “Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: 7 Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, 8 Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.” That is every bit as much about organic order as it is laziness! For the church the question is “Do we see God as a master planner or as creator of organic order?
I think the issue of how we view time is an important one (that we will probably never resolve) but not the most important one. Once again the Greeks, the Hebrews, and the keepers of the Empire are allowed to set the agenda for discussion and exercise their determination to dominate and control the Christian world view. Will we Christians ever learn? We have our work cut out for us; that’s for sure.
Philetus
PS. My hobby is myrmecology, prompted by Pr. 6:6 early in my life. Ants make great pets and teachers! The tendency is to try and control them rather than learn from them. My wife likes the former approach, nevertheless, I have one crawling on my desk at the moment anyway.
Dave, I have explained it in full. I don't like supplying links, but then I'm accussed of not backing my arguments.
I suppose we really haven't touched the actual open theism debate.
I'm just arguing against the idea that the Early Christians were somehow not influenced by Greek philosophy and only Augustine started influencing Christianity in such a way.
The New Testament was written in the Greek. There are Greek terms for time that add a new dimension to the concept. Not to mention that the whole world at that time was influenced by the Greek as it filtered through the Roman empire that Palestine was apart of at that time.
Not to mention that Paul was a hellenized Jew from Tarsus and Luke was a gentile who would have been influenced by different thinking along with John Mark who was from Syria.
The Old Testament was written through periods of changes in thinking amongst the Hebrews so we can't say they had a static view of God or his nature, not to mention as Clete said Christians broke off from Jewish thinking anyways.
Lastly, the whole open theism debate is based on Greek philosophy. It was the Greeks who isolated time and started questioning what is time and abstracting. It was the Greeks who started adding geometry and dimension to ideas of time and all our modern science finds its roots in Greek philosophy.
So what is so wrong about Christians using Greek philosophy for their arguments about God?
Don't confuse Greek philosophy with paganism because the philosophy is just pure reasoning.
I suppose we really haven't touched the actual open theism debate.
I'm just arguing against the idea that the Early Christians were somehow not influenced by Greek philosophy and only Augustine started influencing Christianity in such a way.
The New Testament was written in the Greek. There are Greek terms for time that add a new dimension to the concept. Not to mention that the whole world at that time was influenced by the Greek as it filtered through the Roman empire that Palestine was apart of at that time.
Not to mention that Paul was a hellenized Jew from Tarsus and Luke was a gentile who would have been influenced by different thinking along with John Mark who was from Syria.
The Old Testament was written through periods of changes in thinking amongst the Hebrews so we can't say they had a static view of God or his nature, not to mention as Clete said Christians broke off from Jewish thinking anyways.
Lastly, the whole open theism debate is based on Greek philosophy. It was the Greeks who isolated time and started questioning what is time and abstracting. It was the Greeks who started adding geometry and dimension to ideas of time and all our modern science finds its roots in Greek philosophy.
So what is so wrong about Christians using Greek philosophy for their arguments about God?
Don't confuse Greek philosophy with paganism because the philosophy is just pure reasoning.
Lon
Well-known member
Umm, that it wasn't influenced by Greek philosophy?
So now let's move to the actual open theism debate.
This movement seems to be a reaction against Calvanism.
John Calvin just tried to salvage what was a delima of Luther's sola fide concept.
So I'll ask you a question to get a understanding of where you're coming from.
Do you believe that faith alone will save you and that there is nothing that we can do as humans to merit salvation?
Do you believe we are of a fallen nature and essentially evil?
This movement seems to be a reaction against Calvanism.
John Calvin just tried to salvage what was a delima of Luther's sola fide concept.
So I'll ask you a question to get a understanding of where you're coming from.
Do you believe that faith alone will save you and that there is nothing that we can do as humans to merit salvation?
Do you believe we are of a fallen nature and essentially evil?
Except that the historical linkage between Reformed theology is not disputed even by Calvinists. The Westminster confession uses Aristotle's own arguments, for crying out loud. It's very clearly documented for anyone to look up and discover for themselves. You, on the other hand are relying on second hand source of information which you are either unable or unwilling to cite.
So I still don't get your point. Are you arguing that these ideas are correct because the Jew supposedly believed them? If so, then I have to tell you that what the Jews believed is not the standard for faith and practice in the Christian faith. I don't care who believed what, if a doctrine is either unbiblical or irrational then it is false - period.
Resting in Him,
Clete
I really doubt that it was a reaction to Calvinism or anything else for that matter. Open Theism grew out of a desire for a more logically coherent systematic theology. In other words, someone looked at the logical incongruities extant in mainstream Christian thought and instead of blowing them off as "antinomies", worked until a system emerged which dealt with those problems in an intellectually honest and logically consistent manner. The result is one which is not only more logically sound but which also enables the average Bible reader to take passages at face value and to understand what they are reading without ever having to have stepped foot in a seminary nor cracked a theology book.
There is little doubt that there is meaning loaded in several of the terms used in this question which will have to be hammered out but as asked, the answer is an emphatic YES! Salvation is by grace through faith plus nothing, during this dispensation.
Again, acknowledging that you almost certainly mean more than the mere words of this question would suggest, the answer to the question as asked is also yes!
Resting in Him,
Clete
elected4ever
New member
Yes
I believe we are a fallen nature but not necessarily evil. We are dead to god by nature and we do our own thing regardless of the will of God. Wether the things we do are good or evil (morality) is in the eye of the beholder. God is not moral but righteous and we must be as god is or we are we will remane dead Salvation is giving life from the dead. If we receive life then we are not dead (in sin) and are not sinners. Only the dead (sinners) sin.(Commit dead works)
- Status